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On July 26 2011 09:37 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:31 Executor1 wrote:
When writing something down, i dont see the point in stating something 6 times, if someone doesnt understand they can just reread it. It sounds like you wrote this like you would write a public speach. It reads like a politician being interviewed. I don't blame EG for talking to PUMA at NASL; there's not exactly many other opportunities to meet Korean players.
A very bad politician, tbh.
All due respect to AG (I think this really did just blow up in his face due to the cultural differences), but to be honest - Politicians do damage control a lot better than this.
AG basically did a Coach Lee of his own during WoC, and he can't even hold back from being overly defensive about EG's stance with this statement. He doesn't want to court controversy, but he can't help shooting his mouth off and attacking Coach Lee's behaviour.
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Agree with the poster above,
Maybe they should have contacted Puma's team management immediately after the 20 year old player expressed some interest. Why rely on a 20 year old player to express your intentions to his boss, instead of doing it yourself ?
anyway, props to EG for the post and public apology !
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What the fuck people? Why look at this as a mercenary thing?
You need money to buy your living. This is not "just a game" anymore. If there are teams that can pay more money, then so be it! It is the best possible scenario for all the players.
It is not like you have your whole life to make a living out of it. If you are a soccer player and failed to make a lot of money by the time you are 35, then surprise!!! You are pretty fucked, as you 99% likely dropped school. And there is reasons to believe not only the lifespan of an esportsman is shorter, but at least for now, you make SEVERAL orders of magnitude less money.
Please stop this ridiculous idealistic honor bullshit. It's the kind of crap your shitty paying employer applyes when he want to try to keep his best employees (the ones that could potentially leave, cause they have better offers) from leaving without paying them what they deserve.
Provided EG was actually evil. So fucking what? Only good things come out of this. Now all TSL players will get contracts, and some may get salaries to protect the team from them leaving.
Demand and offer! Best scenario possible.
That is exactly why IT jobs are paying so much now, because companies are stealing each others employees by offering more money! And as a computer engineer i couldn't be happyer. Let the battle for human resources go on!!! Fuel the fire.
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Puma fighting! and those other guys on EG too!
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On July 26 2011 09:43 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:37 Klive5ive wrote:On July 26 2011 09:31 Executor1 wrote:
When writing something down, i dont see the point in stating something 6 times, if someone doesnt understand they can just reread it. It sounds like you wrote this like you would write a public speach. It reads like a politician being interviewed. I don't blame EG for talking to PUMA at NASL; there's not exactly many other opportunities to meet Korean players. A very bad politician, tbh. All due respect to AG (I think this really did just blow up in his face due to the cultural differences), but to be honest - Politicians do damage control a lot better than this. AG basically did a Coach Lee of his own during WoC, and he can't even hold back from being overly defensive about EG's stance with this statement. He doesn't want to court controversy, but he can't help shooting his mouth off and attacking Coach Lee's behaviour.
Plus we all know politicians are full of shit. I wouldn't want to be compared to one.
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On July 26 2011 09:39 Enhancer_ wrote:
Statement pretty much confirms what I already came to believe last week, but it's very good that it's made much more clear for some who may not have followed this as closely.
The comments about Milkis are of a whole other issue, and the argument for translators being journalist is debatable and Milkis simply seemed to have ended up in the unfavorable position of having to defend his side of the debate, which he was wholly and understandably unprepared for.
Are there actually any English to Korean translators here who could get this statement out to Koreans? Would only seem fair to the Korean community if they got to have some people just as cool as the translators here.
I actually translated WoC episode and put it in PlayXP, which is pretty much what he just said.
Overall reaction was.. they hate him more now.
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Things I want to know as founder of the PuMa fanclub:
1. How will this affect PuMa's appearance in GSL/GSTL?
2. How will this affect PuMa's living situation (you addressed this a little)?
3. Are you going to keep him from changing his ID to Gentleman?
4. Having a group of individuals in a house is obviously better than just playing alone, because you can talk about the game with your comrades, will PuMa have other players living with him for practice?
Edit:
And will we see him stream?
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I think this is a good response, although it comes a bit late.
However, I think that it would have been more delicate and professional to actually contact TSL first on a corporate level. I appreciate that you agreed otherwise with Puma himself, and that is where you made a mistake imho. This whole thing has snowballed out of proportion, but it has done great harm to EG in terms of reputation regardless of the extent of EG's actual faults.
Finally, I find that offering TSL to retroactively negotiate Puma's transfer is a pretty clear admission of fault, to a certain degree. Although it certainly sounds like a good way to minimize the PR consequences of this whole drama.
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On July 26 2011 09:25 -_- wrote:
I've read the entire post. Forgive me if my missed something.
You keep saying that Puma told you the best first step would be for him to contact his coach. Wouldn't the logical first step for you have been to talk to Lee before approaching Puma and communicating EG's interest? Wouldn't have that really have been the proper first step?
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On July 26 2011 09:39 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved. ... I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together.
If you knew anything about sports teams in general, players all have agents, legally savvy individuals that allow a player to properly voice their concerns in relation to a team. Not only do e-sports players not have agents, some are also not even afforded the luxury of a contract guaranteeing them a damn thing.
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On July 26 2011 09:47 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:39 wklbishop wrote:On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved. ... I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together. If you knew anything about sports teams in general, players all have agents, legally savvy individuals that allow a player to properly voice their concerns in relation to a team. Not only do e-sports players not have agents, some are also not even afforded the luxury of a contract guaranteeing them a damn thing.
And...the solution to this problem is to go straight to the player? Not to the 'legally savvy' team?
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This sounds like pure damage control to me. Second poster hit it right on the head. You see those three "TSL" letters in front of his name? Yea, that means he's already part of a team so have some respect for them and btfo.
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On July 26 2011 09:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:47 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:39 wklbishop wrote:On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:
[quote]
Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved. ... I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together. If you knew anything about sports teams in general, players all have agents, legally savvy individuals that allow a player to properly voice their concerns in relation to a team. Not only do e-sports players not have agents, some are also not even afforded the luxury of a contract guaranteeing them a damn thing. And...the solution to this problem is to go straight to the player? Not to the 'legally savvy' team?
Clearly TSL was legally savvy.
Solid response from EGAG, expected no less.
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why would EG Alex condemn Milkis for translating an article showing Coach Lee's side?
is he really that uneducated...
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On July 26 2011 09:25 -_- wrote:
I've read the entire post. Forgive me if my missed something.
You keep saying that Puma told you the best first step would be for him to contact his coach. Wouldn't the logical first step for you have been to talk to Lee before approaching Puma and communicating EG's interest? Wouldn't have that really have been the proper first step?
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote:
Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
It's common practice for teams to casually hand players business cards towards the end of their contract. Here is a quote from Fnatics manager.
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On July 26 2011 09:49 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:48 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:47 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:39 wklbishop wrote:On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved. ... I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together. If you knew anything about sports teams in general, players all have agents, legally savvy individuals that allow a player to properly voice their concerns in relation to a team. Not only do e-sports players not have agents, some are also not even afforded the luxury of a contract guaranteeing them a damn thing. And...the solution to this problem is to go straight to the player? Not to the 'legally savvy' team? Clearly TSL was legally savvy. Solid response from EGAG, expected no less.
Certainly more experienced in business than a 20 year old, no?
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The word "unprofessional" essentially has no more meaning on TL thanks to people abusing it. I can't believe that even despite what EGAlex had written people still have that gall to be butthurt and argumentative ("OMG no apology to Milkis, so unprofessional").
FWIW I thought that this whole matter was completely overblown and ridiculous. I am more frustrated with TSL's coach and especially the SC2 community than I am with EG. Just goes to show that TL isn't some super mature intelligent community like it pretends. It's just another 4chan with a slightly different focus and flavor.
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This did just spark a Kespa 2.0. Approaching a player who's on another team, can you say tampering? Soon all teams will be contracting players and with that comes the players association.
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On July 26 2011 09:45 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:39 Enhancer_ wrote:
Statement pretty much confirms what I already came to believe last week, but it's very good that it's made much more clear for some who may not have followed this as closely.
The comments about Milkis are of a whole other issue, and the argument for translators being journalist is debatable and Milkis simply seemed to have ended up in the unfavorable position of having to defend his side of the debate, which he was wholly and understandably unprepared for.
Are there actually any English to Korean translators here who could get this statement out to Koreans? Would only seem fair to the Korean community if they got to have some people just as cool as the translators here. I actually translated WoC episode and put it in PlayXP, which is pretty much what he just said. Overall reaction was.. they hate him more now.
Plus if someone actually went ahead and translated this entire essay... Yeah, they would not be pleased. It doesn't take that many paragraphs to make a simple statement unless you know you're at fault and are trying to cover shit up.
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On July 26 2011 09:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:49 Grimsong wrote:On July 26 2011 09:48 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:47 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:39 wklbishop wrote:On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved. ... I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together. If you knew anything about sports teams in general, players all have agents, legally savvy individuals that allow a player to properly voice their concerns in relation to a team. Not only do e-sports players not have agents, some are also not even afforded the luxury of a contract guaranteeing them a damn thing. And...the solution to this problem is to go straight to the player? Not to the 'legally savvy' team? Clearly TSL was legally savvy. Solid response from EGAG, expected no less. Certainly more experienced in business than a 20 year old, no?
Yet EG has a guy on a contract that TSL never had contracted to begin with.
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EPT
