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On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG first spoke with PuMa at NASL, prior to the round of 8 matches.... I want to make it very clear that we approached him... I simply let him know (via a translator) that EG was looking to support a Korean player, and asked him if he had any interest on a general level. In the weeks following NASL, PuMa and EG continued our discussion. As of last Wednesday, there was very serious mutual interest in having PuMa on EG; serious enough that he brought the issue up to Mr. Lee, the coach of TSL, as EG and PuMa had agreed would happen.
In the case of TSL, the only reason we did not speak with Mr. Lee first is that it was established between EG and PuMa, in our very first conversation, that - if he eventually decided he was interested in joining EG - he felt that the best first step (read: *first* step) to take would be for him to personally bring the issue to his coach.
Nice first step: weeks of secret conversations, "very serious mutual interest" established (read: a decision was reached that Puma would join EG), and not even then did EG speak with the TSL coach... but instead a 19 year old kid would be in charge of starting the negotiations with his coach? And all because of some translated agreement reached at the NASL weeks previously? How many steps is that really, before the "very first step"?
1) Fishing conversations at NASL.
2) A weird agreement made with a player not to discuss the prospects of leaving their team with their coach.
3) Weeks of secret talks.
4) Serious mutual interest established.
5) Potentially delicate negotiations between a 19 year old and a person in authority over him are entrusted at least initially to that 19 year old
Helluva first step. Each one of these "steps" seems questionable.
Very shady.
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On July 26 2011 10:53 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:44 FuTon wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters.  It sounds more like this is your personal crusade to smear Milkis' and TL's reputation imo. THANK YOU FUTON. AGREED. EG and EG fans like starcraft2rush need to stfu
You are absolutely right. An entire group of TL users needs to 'stfu' because they are fans of the team that you don't like. Being a fan of that team instantly means that their words are not to be heeded at all.
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Yes, if they talked to the team first they would never get the player, good idea.
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EG has just acted in a manner that can do nothing but harm relationships between Korean and non-Korean eSports. Sad.
This whole statement is just. . .ridiculous. The very fact that you kept emphasising that talking to the TSL coach was the first step when the entire issue is that you didn't do this is just. . .what? EG's first step was to talk to Puma. That is the problem people have. Don't try to obfuscate with irrelevant stuff that no one is talking about - nobody cares what happened after you approached Puma, no one has any issue with that.
Offering a general apology without saying what you did wrong is just incredibly dishonest, but I guess that goes with the tone of the entire post, which addressed absolutely nothing that people have issues with.
Edit: To be clear, if EG wants to be honest and just says "Yeah, we talk to the players first because that's the best way to convince them to join and fuck anyone who thinks this isn't acceptable" then I'd at least respect the integrity.
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Never been a EG fan but thanks for clearing it up for other people I saw WoC and it was just alex giving clear answers and milkis giving horrible arguments for his utopia that will never happen.
GL in the future.
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On July 26 2011 10:48 m2e wrote:
EG actually did more than they needed to in order to square everything away and try to be as polite as possible.
You're right. They tried to square everything away with TSL. After getting Puma.
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On July 26 2011 10:53 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:44 FuTon wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. It sounds more like this is your personal crusade to smear Milkis' and TL's reputation imo. THANK YOU FUTON. AGREED. EG and EG fans like starcraft2rush need to stfu
Not saying that Milkis is trying to ruin EG's reputation, but it seems there are a lot of trolls trying to do that.
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First step, first step, and first step.
Yeah we get it, people have moved on, but the egg on your face and organization ain't going to disappear.
Ultimately, I feel that TSL's public actions in this situation were not appropriate. I think that TSL's reaction, and their decision to go to the press so fast, was very knee-jerk, and I don't feel that it was fair to EG.
Nice.
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I'm happy that steps were taken towards mending relations with the KR teams, it's probably the most important thing at the moment. Aside from that, pretty decent damage control I suppose.
I still think the whole idea behind all this - approaching a previously unknown player during his breakout tournament, taking advantage of the fact that he's not under contract in order to recruit him easily, and then letting him handle the very delicate task of relaying the whole situation to his coach - was in part naive, and in part greedy. Ultimately, no matter how good your intentions are, and how legally sound the whole plan is, you're still doing something unpleasant from an ethical standpoint, so don't act surprised when you receive negative feedback over it.
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You just admitted that you never approached Coach Lee first. So, this whole situation could have been avoided if you went through the proper channels. Yet, you still say that you are not really at fault...
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On July 26 2011 10:55 FuzzyJAM wrote:
EG has just acted in a manner that can do nothing but harm relationships between Korean and non-Korean eSports. Sad.
This whole statement is just. . .ridiculous. The very fact that you kept emphasising that talking to the TSL coach was the first step when the entire issue is that you didn't do this is just. . .what? EG's first step was to talk to Puma. That is the problem people have. Don't try to obfuscate with irrelevant stuff that no one is talking about - nobody cares what happened after you approached Puma, no one has any issue with that.
Offering a general apology without saying what you did wrong is just incredibly dishonest, but I guess that goes with the tone of the entire post, which addressed absolutely nothing that people have issues with.
Edit: To be clear, if EG wants to be honest and just says "Yeah, we talk to the players first because that's the best way to convince them to join and fuck anyone who thinks this isn't acceptable" then I'd at least respect the integrity.
Ty for seeing past the bs.
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On July 26 2011 10:57 Rinrun wrote:First step, first step, and first step. Yeah we get it, people have moved on, but the egg on your face and organization ain't going to disappear. Show nested quote +Ultimately, I feel that TSL's public actions in this situation were not appropriate. I think that TSL's reaction, and their decision to go to the press so fast, was very knee-jerk, and I don't feel that it was fair to EG. Nice.
very good post imo
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On July 26 2011 10:58 ptbl wrote:
You just admitted that you never approached Coach Lee first. So, this whole situation could have been avoided if you went through the proper channels. Yet, you still say that you are not really at fault...
There is no problem except for people like you trying to create drama just for the hell of it. It really isn't that big of a deal.
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I have no idea what EG said about Milkis during that WoC cast or w/e, but I don't understand why so many people are defending him. He did things badly and it blew out of proportion in the western community because of the way he did it and obviously EG are gonna be pretty pissed, public image is everything when getting sponsors and they apparently didn't even know what was going on with Puma or whether they were going to talk to Coach Lee to negotiate things further.
First thing for good journalism is to get both sides of the story FIRST (seems like a recurring theme) before posting something that will reflect negatively on a gaming organization to keep relations between two organizations good, as Milkis is representing Team Liquid (he's a translator here after all). But he translated the article straight away, then demanded a response from SirScoots quite aggressively and rudely (at least in my opinion) over twitter, saying "We're waiting for your side of the story". Surely he could've waited 30 minutes more, given a rough translation to the article to SirScoots/EG and asked for his side of the story before publishing.
It was unprofessional, either way and he should be a big boy. He's representing a global gaming organization now, that is the face of SC2 for the western community. Maybe it's time some of the staff picked it up a notch and became a bit more professional
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On July 26 2011 10:59 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:58 ptbl wrote:
You just admitted that you never approached Coach Lee first. So, this whole situation could have been avoided if you went through the proper channels. Yet, you still say that you are not really at fault... There is no problem except for people like you trying to create drama just for the hell of it. It really isn't that big of a deal.
This is a problem except for mindless capitalists/EG fanboys like you who like to advocate "efficiency" for the hell of it. It really is a big deal.
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On July 26 2011 10:59 AlissyXOXO wrote:
I have no idea what EG said about Milkis during that WoC cast or w/e, but I don't understand why so many people are defending him. He did things badly and it blew out of proportion in the western community because of the way he did it and obviously EG are gonna be pretty pissed, public image is everything when getting sponsors and they apparently didn't even know what was going on with Puma or whether they were going to talk to Coach Lee to negotiate things further.
First thing for good journalism is to get both sides of the story FIRST (seems like a recurring theme) before posting something that will reflect negatively on a gaming organization to keep relations between two organizations good, as Milkis is representing Team Liquid (he's a translator here after all). But he translated the article straight away, then demanded a response from SirScoots quite aggressively and rudely (at least in my opinion) over twitter, saying "We're waiting for your side of the story". Surely he could've waited 30 minutes more, given a rough translation to the article to SirScoots/EG and asked for his side of the story before publishing.
It was unprofessional, either way and he should be a big boy. He's representing a global gaming organization now, that is the face of SC2 for the western community. Maybe it's time some of the staff picked it up a notch and became a bit more professional
If you think that's rude, I don't know what to tell you. Your bias is showing.
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On July 26 2011 10:40 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:35 dacthehork wrote:
It still is very underhanded way of things. TSL housed/trained/fed Puma for 10 months in an environment EG could not have provided. To have 10 months of work taken away is pretty ridiculous. That 10 months is still a lot of resources TSL put in and when it finally looked like they would get anything out of it... he is sniped out. It's partly TSL's fault for relying on trust but it still makes me dislike EG and Puma.
There is still 10 months of training/food/housing etc that TSL put in to making PuMa better and EG just basically got the ace player without having to invest any effort training them.
It also shows me more that EG has no real interest in developing players as their team has been pretty bad lately and now they are going after koreans. THIS
Good luck in the job market .... let me guess after your first job spends 10's of thousands training you to work in the real world you'll bail at the first chance for more pay and a better position with another company...
I know I would... I know I DID! I said thank you and it was great but you know you can't support my growth as well as these new guys... why wouldn't you? why wouldn't puma
A lot of people are holding others to standards that they would never hold themselves... Would you really give up a chance at being the best paid in your career just because TSL is in a shity position? This isn't of my gf's dad just died bad time to break up... this is real life.
If Puma owed anything to TSL it was PUMA'S choice to pay that due.
Edit:
If EG talks to Mr. Lee first, SAME RESULT... Puma still leaves the team, and since he wasn't signed TSL prob gets 0 or just a token transfer fee.
All of this rage about the etique is quite shocking.
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I'll be honest, after reading this thing in it's entirety I don't see EG as bad as an organization when this whole thing blew up in the first place. That being said though, I think once it did blow up EG handled it pretty poorly.
I think part of my problem with this was the WoC thing because Milkis comes of as this frightened translator who has no idea what's going on really, he is just relaying messages, and the executive of EG came of as a huge asshole throughout the show, at least the first 45mins of it I could stomach.
Anyways, glad for the clarification on this whole mess.
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Good to hear EG's side. I still think you should have approached TSL through the management. I believe ethically that was the right move, legally what EG did was fine as PuMa did not have a contract.
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EG's attempts at recruiting other korean players from korean teams haven't led to much success, I'm guessing it's because they spoke to management first. By doing that, management obviously wouldn't want to tell their own players about the competing offers from other teams. By speaking with PuMa directly, they've bypassed this wall. Even though the intention was to have PuMa speak with Mr.Lee about it, they've already put their foot in the door and have bypassed the hardest step in their recruitment process. As much as you want to say that you wanted to talk to Mr.Lee through PuMa, the fact is, without speaking to Mr.Lee first, you would not be able to recruit a player from the team.
I bolded the appropriate words for you. The issue here is the lower part of your paragraph. Puma was not under any contract. So you feel that if a team claims a player, nobody can ever talk to the player about other opportunities. So does this filter down to clans? Before an amature comes into the pro ranks do team managers need to contact their affiliated groups first and have a meeting about signing their player where a clan who got lucky enough to let a talented player join their ranks now dictates the terms of the players future? Keep in mind at this point the player would be affiliated with the clan only, and is now stepping into the pro scene after some recent success in tournaments.
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EPT
