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On July 26 2011 10:36 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:33 jenzebubble wrote:On July 26 2011 10:29 Taf the Ghost wrote:
While some are saying that EG should stop being involved in drama, the SOTG situation was the result of JP getting a sponsorship offer that'd have conflicted with EG's sponsor contracts, which means Geoff couldn't "remain" a pillar. That wasn't anyone's fault but for an out-of-context screen cap. This situation is Coach Lee venting to a media site rather than calling up and talking to EG. These situations really aren't because they were trying to start anything. Geoff could have stayed on SOTG, as witnessed by the fact that he was allowed to go back if JP would have him. He has posted publicly that EG realizes that they handled the situation poorly. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/izh55/ama_with_me_incontrol/c27w1lf He can still go on, he just can't be a "pillar", which is what the discussion with Scoots was about. They could have handled it better, and this one too, with some better community communication. Which is, technically, what this post is all about. Which is a nice improvement.
The way I read it, iNcontroL could come back as a pillar, but JP might have moved on at this point.
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On July 26 2011 10:45 dennistoo wrote:
but I want to make it very clear that we approached him.
Failed.
??? People were mad because the TSL coach said that EG lied. EG said they didn't.
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You should sell your yacht and buy a bigger apartment.
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Why do people keep bringing up the NFL and NBA? in "eSports", if a player isint under contract he is free game for any team that wants to take a shot at him. The only thing that holds an uncontracted player to a team is loyalty. PuMa had no contract and no salary and apparently his loyalty wasnt strong enough to TSL to stick around therefore he made his own decision. This would be an amazingly negative thing on EG's part if they "sniped" a contracted player away from any team but guess what? PuMa didnt have a contract therefore it was free game. EG actually did more than they needed to in order to square everything away and try to be as polite as possible.
I've never been a fan of EG due to incontrol but what EG did in this situation was NOT wrong. They contracted a player who was not bound/tied/contracted in anyway to a team, made him an offer and asked him to discuss it with his coach while even offering transfer and buyout fee's (which they dont need to pay in the first place for an uncontracted player).
As for the people who say "well in the NFL this would be illegal and it would be tampering, you wouldnt just take a player without talking to the coach blah blah blah"... Hey guess what? In the NFL if you want to start of propose a trade or want to force a trade, the player would let his agent know and the agent would handle any negotiations. Many coaches in professional sports have little to no say as to what players are traded from/to their teams and thats the way it is, it's up to their GM's and owners. There are no "agents" for any SC2 player and there is no structure in eSports like any other major sports league so lets drop that analogy please...
Could EG have been a bit more formal in pursuing PuMa? Sure, but what they ended up doing was fair. They went after an uncontracted player whos tie to a team was simply loyalty, made an offer and got him. This should be a learning experience for TSL and a learning experience for SC2 in korea that they need a proper player/coach organization to handle these types of issues and have rules set in place to protect both players and teams from losing out on one another especially with the foreign explosion in order to not lose home-grown talent without either being compensated or rewarded. Whether its contracts, salary's, player performance clauses, guarantees or whatever. The SC2 scene in korea is way behind when it comes to these type of things and this is where KESPA actually worked (even though kespa was a hellish org. in a lot of other aspects).
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On July 26 2011 10:32 bubblegumbo wrote:
Oh please you wouldn't have retroactively offered TSL any compensation if it wasn't for the negative publicity. It took you this long to do this and make this press release while the Korean and TL press had a field day for a week when you could've sorted this out amicably before Puma actually left TSL. You also admitted to tapping up Puma, just be glad that TSL is a team struggling to get bills paid and not a team with big Korean companies sponsoring them who can afford legal action. Thanks for teaching TSL a lesson about life though, I am sure they have taken it to heart for the rest of their lives.
What legal grounds would TSL have to bring any action against EG. While people can debate weather it was unethical, most people seem to agree that ED did nothing legally wrong. They signed an uncontracted player, nothing legally wrong with that
What are TSL going to tell the judge, "EG did not respect our honor system so they need to be prosecuted". Not the best base for a case if you ask me.
And while i think EG was completely ok in the way they signed puma, i am glad they see the error of there ways in going miliks, he was just a translator, translating and article, nothing more nothing less. That is like going after an anime sub group because you think the anime they are subbing has objectionable content in it that you want changed.
edit:
quoted wrong post
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I don't really think what EG did with Puma specifically was wrong. I thought it was a douche move but never wrong. I'm also incredibly defensive of contributors to this community and what happened to Milkis rubbed me the wrong way as yet another douche move. Hopefully Puma sees success, but there's nothing wrong with disliking an organization for a series of douche moves and that's my personal position at the moment. Appreciate the work EG wants to do with Koreans but hopefully EG learns to lay off the douche moves in the future.
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On July 26 2011 10:48 m2e wrote:
Why do people keep bringing up the NFL and NBA? in "eSports", if a player isint under contract he is free game for any team that wants to take a shot at him. The only thing that holds an uncontracted player to a team is loyalty. PuMa had no contract and no salary and apparently his loyalty wasnt strong enough to TSL to stick around therefore he made his own decision. This would be an amazingly negative thing on EG's part if they "sniped" a contracted player away from any team but guess what? PuMa didnt have a contract therefore it was free game. EG actually did more than they needed to in order to square everything away and try to be as polite as possible.
I've never been a fan of EG due to incontrol but what EG did in this situation was NOT wrong. They contracted a player who was not bound/tied/contracted in anyway to a team, made him an offer and asked him to discuss it with his coach while even offering transfer and buyout fee's (which they dont need to pay in the first place for an uncontracted player).
As for the people who say "well in the NFL this would be illegal and it would be tampering, you wouldnt just take a player without talking to the coach blah blah blah"... Hey guess what? In the NFL if you want to start of propose a trade or want to force a trade, the player would let his agent know and the agent would handle any negotiations. Many coaches in professional sports have little to no say as to what players are traded from/to their teams and thats the way it is, it's up to their GM's and owners. There are no "agents" for any SC2 player and there is no structure in eSports like any other major sports league so lets drop that analogy please...
Could EG have been a bit more formal in pursuing PuMa? Sure, but what they ended up doing was fair. They went after an uncontracted player whos tie to a team was simply loyalty, made an offer and got him. This should be a learning experience for TSL and a learning experience for SC2 in korea that they need a proper player/coach organization to handle these types of issues and have rules set in place to protect both players and teams from losing out on one another especially with the foreign explosion in order to not lose home-grown talent without either being compensated or rewarded. Whether its contracts, salary's, player performance clauses, guarantees or whatever. The SC2 scene in korea is way behind when it comes to these type of things and this is where KESPA actually worked (even though kespa was a hellish org. in a lot of other aspects).
Agreed. Seriously, people are just trying to create drama... I really don't see why this has to be such a big deal.
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On July 26 2011 10:43 starcraft2rush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:40 jupidar wrote:
Why would EG contact TSL in the first step? That makes no sense. because if they had done that...most likely they would not have gotten Puma on their roster. Then the EG haters could stay happy knowing one talented player isn't joining their lineup to crush nerd face.
Puma is talented, but for how much longer will he be close to the top. Its pretty apparent with reactions from past team mates and obviously the ones on TSL that he will lack some incredible practice partners. EG hasn't released their intentions with him, but if they bring him to the states to try and help the rest of the EG members practice he will fall off drastically. If EG just wants him as a mercenary it would have made more sense to follow the lead of the other foreign teams coming into Korea. Notice how those companies have won, and nobody is outraged by any of it.
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i dont think EG did anything wrong and its unfortunate what happened happened, i think it was just miscommunication and the news spreading a lot faster than what was expected. Still an EG fan.
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On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters.  That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all.
That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest.
His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is.
Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol.
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To summarize, "We didn't contact TSL before approaching their player because we approached their player first and decided that as the *first step* (you know, after the zeroth step of contacting the player) would be to talk with his management."
:-D
Seriously, though, while I think EG should've contacted TSL first, it's irresponsible of pro teams like TSL to not have their players under contract, given that they're investing time, coaching, food, and house space in them.
I wish Puma the best, and I'm psyched that Western teams are beginning to support Korean players. It just means more of the best players will be at more tournaments!
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On July 26 2011 10:40 coolcor wrote:I wanted to post something interesting Tyler posted on reddit. Show nested quote +It would have been extraordinary if a contract was already written and signed. Even if PuMa was an extreme pushover and signed the first thing thrown at him, I don't think EG could have even written their first offer yet. I don't know why AG even brings it up except to diffuse the situation with irrelevant bullshit. We don't know exactly what was said and what kind of verbal commitments or indications were given by either party. There could have been very strong things said but of course a contract being already signed is out of the question. That fact tells us nothing.
We know that serious enough things were said that PuMa was willing to leave TSL. We know that serious enough things were said that AG decided to go on WoC and defend his side of it rather than call the whole thing an overreaction, which would have been an option if he wasn't actually planning to sign PuMa. He might not be 100% sure that he's going to sign PuMa, but he's gotta be pretty sure that he's going to sign him, or at least sure that he still wants to sign him.
If contracts take as long to make as he says and Puma has now signed doesn't that mean it was already being written when Puma told Mr. Lee? Doesn't that mean Puma and EG had already agreed to all the terms and it was to late to change anything? What could TSL talk to EG about in that case? I feel like people are focusing on who talked to who first to much and less on the timing of when they decided to tell Mr. Lee and how much negotiation had already happened. I think the difference between "I'm seriously thinking of joining EG can the three of us discuss/negotiate this deal together" and "I've made a deal with EG and am just waiting for the contract." is the most important thing that upset Mr. Lee.
Here's another quote from tyler:@egincontrol you forget the point of forum discussions? they aren't for getting anything done or figuring anything out. they're just for fun
22 Jul If he doesn't care about the bullshit he throws out on a whim, why do you?
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On July 26 2011 10:45 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:31 Talin wrote:On July 26 2011 10:30 Zooper31 wrote:
Was a fan before and still a fan now. Knew this situation was way overblown and only a negative bias has been reported on. EG did nothing wrong and TSL's coach blew everything out of proportion before he talked to EG. You mean before EG talked to him? EG did nothing illegal, on that we all agree. Nothing wrong? That's for everyone to decide for themselves. EG did nothing wrong. You contact the player first to see if he even would consider moving, signing, etc. Then you contact team after player has shown interest. EG never got to the 2nd step because TSL went public way too early and gave a negative bias. Then EG had to wait to sign PuMa and etc and make a press release having to explain why everything went so badly.
You're still only making a case for EG doing nothing illegal.
You're not making a case for EG doing nothing wrong.
Can you even tell the difference between those two? Because honestly looking back at these threads - it strikes me that a bunch of people really can't.
Why even talk about contract by the way? Nobody is arguing that point at all.
The ordering of the steps they took was still not right. EG intended (and note we only have their word for this so far, so... yeah) to bring it up to TSL themselves only when it was basically a done deal, and when Puma already made up his mind and tried to soften up Lee himself. I mean after all of that happens, what's the point of even talking to anyone else in TSL? What would they have to say?
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On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol.
I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later.
Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way.
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What did EG do that was wrong? I see nothing.
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On July 26 2011 10:47 C.W. wrote:
You should sell your yacht and buy a bigger apartment.
LOL. Well handled, sir.
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I'm a bit confused how all of this is blowing up. If you don't want players able to leave at any time give them a contract. Obviously Puma saw something in EG that he isn't getting with TSL. He's not under contract. He discussed his options with his current coach and still wanted to leave. I'm not sure where people are thinking anything was done that was disrespectful. Players get added and dropped all of the time from teams. If this happens to practice players by a team in Korea nobody says a word. Now that it involves a high profile player it's suddenly wrong.
And so many people here are clairvoyant. they all claim to know the timeline things happened and who talked to who when. It's all speculation if you weren't actually involved.
It still is very underhanded way of things. TSL housed/trained/fed Puma for 10 months in an environment EG could not have provided. To have 10 months of work taken away is pretty ridiculous. That 10 months is still a lot of resources TSL put in and when it finally looked like they would get anything out of it... he is sniped out. It's partly TSL's fault for relying on trust but it still makes me dislike EG and Puma.
There is still 10 months of training/food/housing etc that TSL put in to making PuMa better and EG just basically got the ace player without having to invest any effort training them.
Isn't EG signing Puma to an actual contract an effort to provide him with these exact things into the future? If TSL doeasn't want players to leave they need to use contracts. If Puma suddenly dropped off as a player and in a year TSL dropped him would you feel TSL owes him something for his time and dedication. Those are two valuable resources. It's a two way street. EG also just said they are willing to retroactively negotiate terms, so the whole time and effort thing isn't a point anymore. Relying on trust only goes so far. Both parties feel vulnerable. A contract would have solved all of this.
I feel that if a player isn't under contract they aren't obligated to any team. They could get cut as easy as they could be kept on. If a better situation comes along they are free to leave just as if a worse situation happens a team is free to cut a player. It seems people are letting their bias and fandom get in the way of seeing this in a clear way.
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On July 26 2011 10:44 FuTon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. It sounds more like this is your personal crusade to smear Milkis' and TL's reputation imo.
THANK YOU FUTON. AGREED. EG and EG fans like starcraft2rush need to stfu
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On July 26 2011 10:41 starcraft2rush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. I watched the show with him and alex on it. It was beyond obvious milkis voice was shaking in anger while he tried to throw silly accusations out. You didn't have to be an expert to figure out what this was about.
I agree that it's obvious there is a certain degree of "protectionism" for want of a better word that is going on. SC2 in Korea isn't making near as much money as it is in other parts of the world, Korea clearly has talented players that teams can't offer good conditions to, and there's a real animosity towards any foreign organisation trying to take the talent away - especially when they have their own players who aren't coming to compete in Korea. Just look at the way FXO's acquisition of Fou compares to this situation - it's night and day in both circumstances and the resulting reaction to the deal.
But while Milkis understands this, I think his anger stemmed more from the fact that Alex was basically claiming to have done his homework and a lot of careful preparation, yet his actions completely show a desire to do exactly what the Korean teams are afraid of happening - come in, take the cream of the talent with little regard to the teams that supported them, and ship them off to win big money in the international scene.
I think it definitely is a bold claim to say Milkis translated the article specifically to tarnish EG, and you need more to back that up. Milkis tried to explain the situation to Alex, and Alex repeatedly refused to show any desire to change his attitude. He came off exactly like the bullish, arrogant, greedy western mega-corporation he's claiming not to be. I don't even believe EG is like that, but I certainly understand that the perception is there, and it was only exacerbated by that interview.
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What made PuMa so special that EG had to approach him before TSL management? Is it because EG knows that TSL doesn't have the sponsors to support their players, thus making EG's offer that much more attractive?
EG's attempts at recruiting other korean players from korean teams haven't led to much success, I'm guessing it's because they spoke to management first. By doing that, management obviously wouldn't want to tell their own players about the competing offers from other teams. By speaking with PuMa directly, they've bypassed this wall. Even though the intention was to have PuMa speak with Mr.Lee about it, they've already put their foot in the door and have bypassed the hardest step in their recruitment process. As much as you want to say that you wanted to talk to Mr.Lee through PuMa, the fact is, without speaking to Mr.Lee first, you would not be able to recruit a player from the team.
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EPT
