EPTEG signs PuMa, responds to criticism - Page 21
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dano101
Canada92 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote: I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
Drama much? | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:02 Galleon.frigate wrote: Good luck in the job market .... let me guess after your first job spends 10's of thousands training you to work in the real world you'll bail at the first chance for more pay and a better position with another company... I know I would... I know I DID! Absolutely. People change jobs all the time, and unless there's a written contract in place, it's never negotiated between the employers. It's not a marriage, guys. | ||
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AlissyXOXO
United States49 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote: Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. 1) Alex accused him of defaming 2) He did not defame 3) ergo Alex is a pompous idiot | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:03 dano101 wrote: what's with alex apologizing then completely slamming the person he apologizes to in his next sentence? id have a better view of EG if they just stuck to one way instead of trying to pass themselves off as a victim and attack others through nice wording. prob because he's not only sorry, but he's also pissed the fuck that his company potentially is losing thuosands if not 10's of thousands of captial because of this PR BS | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:07 Galleon.frigate wrote: prob because he's not only sorry, but he's also pissed the fuck that his company potentially is losing thuosands if not 10's of thousands of captial because of this PR BS Saying 'I apologize but you guys are all wrong" doesn't exactly strike me as sorry. | ||
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cavalier117
United States430 Posts
sounds like the "translator" shouldnt have appeared on the show as the opposite side then... im all for Milkis being geat to TL, but he clearly disliked the EG debacle and argued against multiple times throughout the show. always saying "thats not how Koreans do it". if your gonna give it, be ready to take it, he clearly wasnt ready | ||
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headbus
Canada173 Posts
1. SC2 team sucks, find rising star in talent filled Korea. 2. Speak to said Korean player and tell him its his job to speak to his manager about leaving his current team and joining another. 3. Wait for Korean manager to release player. 4. Sign Korean player and claim the whole thing was simply blown out of proportion. You do not ever speak directly to a player in these situations, every major trade you see in sports organizations go through the managers/owners of the teams. You do not ever involve the players, you don't say hey, we're an under performing American team that can make you famous because you're a popular player out here. We can afford to put you on salary for twice as much as what TSL can. Go speak with your manager and ask him if its alright that you leave TSL and join EG. I can't believe anyone is even buying your bullshit, even if you did make a mile long post repeating the same excuse. | ||
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edwahn
New Zealand121 Posts
Step 1) EG approaches Puma. Almost certainly offers $$ (can someone confirm? or refute?) Step 2) EG and Puma agree that best "first" step is to talk to the coach Step 3) Continue conversation between EG/Puma where serious interest is established Step 4) Invent a time machine Step 5) Jump in said time machine, and rewind 4 steps Step 1) Puma, or more appropriately, EG approaches coach Lee about signing Puma | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:06 Lysenko wrote: Absolutely. People change jobs all the time, and unless there's a written contract in place, it's never negotiated between the employers. It's not a marriage, guys. This is absolutely par for the course in the 'real world'... A company needs to able to retain it's talent. If it's can't, then that's the company's fault. Offer more salary, give better benefits, either way it's the company that lost their employee's fault. | ||
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jupidar
United States229 Posts
Some people should really educate themselves on western esports ^^ | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:02 Tomfour wrote: I'll be honest, after reading this thing in it's entirety I don't see EG as bad as an organization when this whole thing blew up in the first place. That being said though, I think once it did blow up EG handled it pretty poorly. I think part of my problem with this was the WoC thing because Milkis comes of as this frightened translator who has no idea what's going on really, he is just relaying messages, and the executive of EG came of as a huge asshole throughout the show, at least the first 45mins of it I could stomach. Anyways, glad for the clarification on this whole mess. EG doesn't have anyone dealing with community relations, which is what the problem the entire time was. Alex did okay on WoC until the end. Bringing up a point like he did is going to be read as an attack, no matter what he did. That actually ended up being his biggest mistake. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:09 ploy wrote: This is absolutely par for the course in the 'real world'... A company needs to able to retain it's talent. If it's can't, then that's the company's fault. Offer more salary, give better benefits, either way it's the company that lost their employee's fault. sick of this 'it's just business' excuse. maybe some people aren't as eager as you to integrate wall street maneuvers into sc2? | ||
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Zooper31
United States5713 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:52 Talin wrote: You're still only making a case for EG doing nothing illegal. You're not making a case for EG doing nothing wrong. Can you even tell the difference between those two? Because honestly looking back at these threads - it strikes me that a bunch of people really can't. Why even talk about contract by the way? Nobody is arguing that point at all. The ordering of the steps they took was still not right. EG intended (and note we only have their word for this so far, so... yeah) to bring it up to TSL themselves only when it was basically a done deal, and when Puma already made up his mind and tried to soften up Lee himself. I mean after all of that happens, what's the point of even talking to anyone else in TSL? What would they have to say? I don't know what you're expecting me to say. Shit of course EG didn't do anything illegal, who the fuck brought that up? IMO (in my opinion) EG did nothing wrong. That's my case. From what I've seen from both sides I believe EG was in the right. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:09 headbus wrote: EG's move was incredibly unprofessional. 1. SC2 team sucks, find rising star in talent filled Korea. 2. Speak to said Korean player and tell him its his job to speak to his manager about leaving his current team and joining another. 3. Wait for Korean manager to release player. 4. Sign Korean player and claim the whole thing was simply blown out of proportion. You do not ever speak directly to a player in these situations, every major trade you see in sports organizations go through the managers/owners of the teams. You do not ever involve the players, you don't say hey, we're an under performing American team that can make you famous because you're a popular player out here. We can afford to put you on salary for twice as much as what TSL can. Go speak with your manager and ask him if its alright that you leave TSL and join EG. I can't believe anyone is even buying your bullshit, even if you did make a mile long post repeating the same excuse. Stop being dense. The only reason trades are structured like that in popular sports is because those are the RULES. It is ILLEGAL to do anything else as per an agreement between all teams within the league. There are no rules like this for E-sports (especially not for a non-contracted player..). | ||
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StimMarine
723 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:05 ploy wrote: What's with all the whiners? Sensitive much? Honestly, you can't compare this situation to a sanctioned sports league because the only reason that an organization is the first contacted is because it is illegal to do otherwise, based on a set of rules that everyone within the league agreed on. E-Sports has nothing like that. It is 100% normal that in NORMAL business, if a company is interested in an employee of another company, they just straight up talk to that employee. I work in an industry where this is super common and it's totally acceptable. Drama much? The problem is that in Korea, there is an established pro-gaming scene with established rules of formal and informal conduct. EG may not have been wrong in doing what they did, but they should have paid more regard to the way the Korean e-sports scene does things. | ||
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InstantKarma
United States205 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:55 Liudo wrote: Nice first step: weeks of secret conversations, "very serious mutual interest" established (read: a decision was reached that Puma would join EG), and not even then did EG speak with the TSL coach... but instead a 19 year old kid would be in charge of starting the negotiations with his coach? And all because of some translated agreement reached at the NASL weeks previously? How many steps is that really, before the "very first step"? 1) Fishing conversations at NASL. 2) A weird agreement made with a player not to discuss the prospects of leaving their team with their coach. 3) Weeks of secret talks. 4) Serious mutual interest established. 5) Potentially delicate negotiations between a 19 year old and a person in authority over him are entrusted at least initially to that 19 year old Helluva first step. Each one of these "steps" seems questionable. Very shady. Ok boys! Roll out the chalkboard! Glenn Beck has arrived! It's conspiracy time! Did you hear that guys?! Weeks of secret shady meetings where EG steals away the innocent nineteen year old boy who can't look after himself. No, there weren't weeks of secret talks. EG and Puma had a conversation in which Puma decided to personally talk to coach Lee about potentially going to another team. Also, you are very condescending to Puma. You talk of him as if he were a child! If Puma decides what best is that he personally approaches his coach then that is what should be done. | ||
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