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I'm amazed at how people still argue the exact same things they did last week when AG has made everything clear already.
The wrongdoing was on Lee's part. Making an uninformed and hugely scandalous (I can't believe I just used this word) statement to the media before Puma and EG had any agreement other than "Puma, talk to your boss about this possibility" is unprofessional and extremely drama inducing. If anything, Lee should have gone to EG first to vent his obvious frustration, not take the girly way out and simply let the esports mob, which he PURPOSELY misled, do his dirty work. If he felt further frustration after talking with EG and actually letting them explain themselves a bit, then sure, by all means, make an angry, but at the very least, well informed statement of actual facts.
He's turned this incredibly momentous opportunity for Puma into something that will only be remembered bitterly.
If a regulatory body like Kespa is established, I feel that he's most at fault. Really, if he'd talked with EG and settled this quietly, the integrity of the "honor system" that Koreans teams use may have lasted much, much longer, and he would not have been forced to contract all his players.
Overall, this situation just sucks when it really shouldn't have. Damn.
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On July 26 2011 11:08 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:07 Galleon.frigate wrote:On July 26 2011 11:03 dano101 wrote:
what's with alex apologizing then completely slamming the person he apologizes to in his next sentence? id have a better view of EG if they just stuck to one way instead of trying to pass themselves off as a victim and attack others through nice wording. prob because he's not only sorry, but he's also pissed the fuck that his company potentially is losing thuosands if not 10's of thousands of captial because of this PR BS Saying 'I apologize but you guys are all wrong" doesn't exactly strike me as sorry.
No, he said "I apologize for not having been more considerate, but you are also a dick for running to the press so readily"
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On July 26 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters.  That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. 1) Alex accused him of defaming 2) He did not defame 3) ergo Alex is a pompous idiot
lol....you finished?
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I dont understand why there is so much controversy. If TSL never even signed puma, they really don't have any right to complain. Shame on TSL for being so lax with one of "their" biggest assets.
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On July 26 2011 10:55 Liudo wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG first spoke with PuMa at NASL, prior to the round of 8 matches.... I want to make it very clear that we approached him... I simply let him know (via a translator) that EG was looking to support a Korean player, and asked him if he had any interest on a general level. In the weeks following NASL, PuMa and EG continued our discussion. As of last Wednesday, there was very serious mutual interest in having PuMa on EG; serious enough that he brought the issue up to Mr. Lee, the coach of TSL, as EG and PuMa had agreed would happen.
In the case of TSL, the only reason we did not speak with Mr. Lee first is that it was established between EG and PuMa, in our very first conversation, that - if he eventually decided he was interested in joining EG - he felt that the best first step (read: *first* step) to take would be for him to personally bring the issue to his coach.
Nice first step: weeks of secret conversations, "very serious mutual interest" established (read: a decision was reached that Puma would join EG), and not even then did EG speak with the TSL coach... but instead a 19 year old kid would be in charge of starting the negotiations with his coach? And all because of some translated agreement reached at the NASL weeks previously? How many steps is that really, before the "very first step"?
1) Fishing conversations at NASL.
2) A weird agreement made with a player not to discuss the prospects of leaving their team with their coach.
3) Weeks of secret talks.
4) Serious mutual interest established.
5) Potentially delicate negotiations between a 19 year old and a person in authority over him are entrusted at least initially to that 19 year old
Helluva first step. Each one of these "steps" seems questionable.
Very shady.
And there you have it.
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On July 26 2011 11:08 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:07 Galleon.frigate wrote:On July 26 2011 11:03 dano101 wrote:
what's with alex apologizing then completely slamming the person he apologizes to in his next sentence? id have a better view of EG if they just stuck to one way instead of trying to pass themselves off as a victim and attack others through nice wording. prob because he's not only sorry, but he's also pissed the fuck that his company potentially is losing thuosands if not 10's of thousands of captial because of this PR BS Saying 'I apologize but you guys are all wrong" doesn't exactly strike me as sorry.
Well, from his point of view he's being shot to hell for doing something that happens all the time in the West. Normally, instead of going public and acting hurt like Coach Lee did, there would be some kind of negotiation. Even though the palyer isn't contracted, there would be negotiations. Alex could scratch Coach Lee's back, he could have Puma, they could do their little mutual press release thing, everybody's happy.
He screwed up, and he has a hard time accepting that poor old Coach Lee didn't play ball (he could have made a deal and been rich!*) and cost EG a whole lot more for no personal gain.
*comparative to where he is now
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On July 26 2011 11:12 starcraft2rush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. 1) Alex accused him of defaming 2) He did not defame 3) ergo Alex is a pompous idiot lol....you finished?
it's pretty simple. people attacking milkis haven't got a leg to stand on. it's obvious. alex and co ganged up on him and threatened him with legally weighty statements. not only is that unprofessional, but it's invalid.
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I don't have much respect for EG and I don't take what you've written for the full truth. -1 fan.
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I never thought EG did anything wrong, Puma was not contracted TSL has no legal claim - though they may have a moral one having 'raised' the player. It seems pretty clear that this was a break down in communication and that EG intended to come to TSL about it.
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First of all I don't understand the whole "approach the team first" mentality. So you go to Mr. Lee and say, "Hey can we have PuMa?" Then what if PuMa doesn't even want to join a US team? Why go through the trouble of making sure you can guarantee money from sponsors if the player in question isn't even guaranteed to be interested? It makes sense to talk to a player first to gauge interest and then proceed to team talks. Not much else to say there.
Secondly, since PuMa claimed that his conversation with Mr. Lee went well, this strikes me as a manager realizing he cannot compete with the terms of a superior contract offered by EG, so he tries to stir up a controversy out of spite for losing his new ace (along with Clide and SangHo.)
Just my $0.02
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The fact of the matter is you don't have a full week to make a statement regarding PR anymore.
Mr. Lee made a statement that caught you off guard. Instead of going on WoC and attacking Milkis who was completely unrelated, doing nothing but bringing Mr. Lee's statements, as reported by a third party news source, to TL.
Instead you should have made this PR statement, or one that was way less long and way less fake, and it would have required way less proofreading to cover all your bases, back then.
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Good to know both sides of the story so now I have a fair & balanced perspective of it.
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I still can't take anything in the original post serious.. Everything is said in a pompous manner, and it is drawn out like he is trying to explain his situation to a bunch of children. Sorry to say, but the way you act in this post and in the WoC interview, you sound like a complete douche bag. I don't care about the daily drama in eSports that is occuring and I will still cheer for certain EG players ,like I always have, but judging by the idiots in their management (Alex and Scoots), the team as a hole seems to leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
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On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be.
This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. Did he do it maliciously, I really really doubt it, it was probally just a mistake. I'll put it this way, posting an inflammatory article about a team, company, brand, any public entity, without first giving the accused a chance to respond, is akin to standing in a crowded room, standing on a table, saying "So and so says <blank>, did THIS! <insert inflammatory action>! What is YOUR side of the story?!"
EG approached a non-contracted player, asked if he would be interested in their team, and asked him to have his coach get in contact with them if he was interested. Thats pretty fair and reasonable. To the people claiming, "oh he's just a 19yr old, how can you trust him to do that." are silly. He is a professional player, playing for a big, sponsored professional team, reguardless of his age he has a responsibility to act professionally, and in all stories and accounts he did. EG was waiting for a response or contact from TSL before proceeding, nothing shady about that.
You all went into Coach Lee's initial press release with an unbiased open mind. Is it unreasonable to go into EG's press release the same way?
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On July 26 2011 11:11 InstantKarma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:55 Liudo wrote:
Nice first step: weeks of secret conversations, "very serious mutual interest" established (read: a decision was reached that Puma would join EG), and not even then did EG speak with the TSL coach... but instead a 19 year old kid would be in charge of starting the negotiations with his coach? And all because of some translated agreement reached at the NASL weeks previously? How many steps is that really, before the "very first step"?
1) Fishing conversations at NASL.
2) A weird agreement made with a player not to discuss the prospects of leaving their team with their coach.
3) Weeks of secret talks.
4) Serious mutual interest established.
5) Potentially delicate negotiations between a 19 year old and a person in authority over him are entrusted at least initially to that 19 year old
Helluva first step. Each one of these "steps" seems questionable.
Very shady.
Ok boys! Roll out the chalkboard! Glenn Beck has arrived! It's conspiracy time! Did you hear that guys?! Weeks of secret shady meetings where EG steals away the innocent nineteen year old boy who can't look after himself. No, there weren't weeks of secret talks. EG and Puma had a conversation in which Puma decided to personally talk to coach Lee about potentially going to another team. Also, you are very condescending to Puma. You talk of him as if he were a child! If Puma decides what best is that he personally approaches his coach then that is what should be done.
I am highly amused at the Glenn Beck reference. For the record, I am not in the least a Glenn Beck fan!
Also you missed all of my post where I directly quoted what Alex wrote. It's not a conspiracy if the evidence is directly quoted in front of you.
I am sorry if you have suffered from over-exposure to Glen Beck and you are now hyper-sensitive to critical reading of a text.
There were weeks of secret talks. Go back and re-read the OP. If you can't understand that those talks lasted for a duration of weeks and were in fact secret then I cannot help you any further, because I am not in a position to tutor you in the english language.
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Sc2 has gotten this far where fans are made and broken by signing players who arent getting paid to be paid..... wow goodjob EG for giving this man what he deserves for his time put into the game money.
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On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism.
He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer.
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On July 26 2011 10:59 AlissyXOXO wrote:
I have no idea what EG said about Milkis during that WoC cast or w/e, but I don't understand why so many people are defending him. He did things badly and it blew out of proportion in the western community because of the way he did it and obviously EG are gonna be pretty pissed, public image is everything when getting sponsors and they apparently didn't even know what was going on with Puma or whether they were going to talk to Coach Lee to negotiate things further.
First thing for good journalism is to get both sides of the story FIRST (seems like a recurring theme) before posting something that will reflect negatively on a gaming organization to keep relations between two organizations good, as Milkis is representing Team Liquid (he's a translator here after all). But he translated the article straight away, then demanded a response from SirScoots quite aggressively and rudely (at least in my opinion) over twitter, saying "We're waiting for your side of the story". Surely he could've waited 30 minutes more, given a rough translation to the article to SirScoots/EG and asked for his side of the story before publishing.
It was unprofessional, either way and he should be a big boy. He's representing a global gaming organization now, that is the face of SC2 for the western community. Maybe it's time some of the staff picked it up a notch and became a bit more professional
The only thing Milkis (in his function as a translator) can theoretically do wrong is make an inaccurate or biased translation. That's it. He could have done things that upset certain groups, sure - and as we've seen on EG's case that too can be quite damaging in its own right, but the key point here is that Milkis was relaying an information that was already out.
The actual flow and format of information was at no point under Milkis' own control. He did not have Lee's statement safely tucked away in a folder somewhere and waited for the right (or wrong as it would be) moment to release it on the internet. It had already been released. Every Korean speaking TL member had access to it (and there are a lot of Korean speaking TL members).
So Milkis' choice at that point is - hold off and delay the translation until EG is prepared to make a counter statement OR translate Lee's message and bring foreign fans on equal footing with the Korean fans who already had access to the information. The choice here is really simple though - because latter is exactly what a translator is supposed to do.
In a way, if Milkis actually did wait for EG to swoop in with the damage control, he would not be doing his job the right way. I myself and I imagine a lot of people rely on TL translators to keep us up to speed on what's going on with the Korean scene, and I appreciate them doing it as fast as humanly possible. The point of translations is hearing what the Korean scene has to say - actually, to hear what had already been said. The role of a translator isn't to slam down censorship and block the flow of information on purpose because EG is going to be butthurt one way or the other.
The whole issue was caused by EG's choice and timing of moves they made in this whole deal. It turns out - it was the wrong choice of moves, and/or the wrong timing. It's not only right that they have to deal with the consequences of it, but it's also beneficial to the scene because I'm pretty fucking sure they'll think twice and a lot more carefully about how they approach recruitment next time.
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They are called Evil Geniuses for a reason.
With all seriousness, he was no contracted so I couldn't care less.
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EPT
