Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 344

On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:



Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself.

You say:
"Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?

"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?

You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg.

On July 23 2011 05:24 CeriseCherries wrote:


Translation by default is neutral. However, if you read what I had wrote, you would realize I am not critiquing the translation. However, remember Milkis is not just a community member doing something of a kind heart- by being the translator for TeamLiquid, a site that delivers "Starcraft Progaming News," he puts away his own opinions in order to deliver a clean and unbiased view. He is only a translator, but as a conduit of news, it is up to him to fact check and report the way any other journalist does. He, by delivering the news, becomes more than just a translator, but takes the responsibility of a journalist. Its not his story, but he is the broadcaster.

Now if through use of tweets, Milkis demonstrates that he is not just neutral, but that he has a stake in the argument and a side to pick, then his supposedly neutral translations are called into question. This is easiest to contextualize in a grander scale: Joe Biden, during the Swine Flu scare, said that if it were up to him, he would not fly on a plane because of how easily germs are spread. This happened in tandem to the White House encouraging travel, in fears of a declining tourism industry. Biden would not be able to represent TeamLiquid and himself at the same time; neither can Milkis. You can point out Milkis is a volunteer (thank you Milkis), but the role is unchanged. He took on a role for TeamLiquid, and inherited the consequences.

Content does not even matter: its just that as a neutral reporter, he cannot broadcast his bias so broadly. I am not faulting his translations, nor his tweets. I am faulting them in conjunction with the other; he cannot exist as a dual role as a commentator and a reporter. It lends doubt to both his comments and his reports.

And maybe I have the IQ of a toaster, bias can be subtle: connotation matters; so does tone. A fight can have a man savage a victim or hit a combatant. A sardonic comment can be mistranslated, and a joke can be an insult. I'm not accusing anyone of intentional mistranslation, but it is can be done.

On July 23 2011 05:16 NotSorry wrote:
So what's pumas plan for practice partners since it said he is staying in Korea and EG having no other players in Korea? Could be very detrimental to his progression and maintaining of skill if he doesn't have a real team around him.

On July 23 2011 05:16 NotSorry wrote:
So what's pumas plan for practice partners since it said he is staying in Korea and EG having no other players in Korea? Could be very detrimental to his progression and maintaining of skill if he doesn't have a real team around him.

On July 23 2011 05:01 nuMi22 wrote:
EDIT: Sorry for wall of text but I didn't want to make a new thread because it would have just got closed.

After watching Weapon of Choice on the matter I developed a view of my own on the matter, one which appears to be in the minority on TL.

I'm going to outright defend EG here, not for any reason other than they are absolutely and totally right in this situation and don't deserve any of the flack they are getting.

We all appear to have a major fundamental goal when it comes to Esports, and that's that we all want it to be huge just like any other normal sport. This is what everyone eventually wants to happen with constant growth of the scene and it's a realistic goal. However with all this growth and us wanting Esports to have a similar (although obviously less) limelight to sports like football for example, we need to adapt our system to one that is actually going to work alongside that goal. My point is that we can NEVER expect that to happen when some teams are not contracting players. It's just never going to happen and it's not even close to realistic. It's a joke to even consider Esports in the same breath if we're not going to entirely incorporate it as a fundamental. Along with this comes Esports as a business opportunity, clearly as EG are seeing it. They're trying to make money of Starcraft 2 and they see it expanding just as we all want it to.

In football, everybody is contracted if they mean anything to a team. The proper path to take when approaching a contracted player is to go through a team, and guess what, if they're not contracted, you can go directly to the player and offer them a contract. You can even do this as a contract is nearing expiration. EG is a business and understands what that means. They know all about contracts and what they're allowed to do, and they know they were allowed to approach Puma and were completely correct in doing so. They broke no rules or laws. If anyone in football isn't contracted, that team can expect to lose that player if they're good, and why wouldn't they? Say a young player wasn't under contract (laughable considering football is a sport and understands the business element that comes with it), but suppose it for the sake of this hypothetical situation. Sure that team was giving them a pitch to train on and players to practise with, but when a massive team comes in with a new opportunity, offering them a salary, why the hell wouldn't they leave? This is how sports work, and it is how Esports needs to work if its going to grow. If you want to keep a player, you fucking contract them or you're going to get 'bit in the ass' as Alex Garfield correctly stated. This is a business world, what the fuck do you all expect. Seriously?

Unfortunately, people like TLO have made blogs about it and the sheep will follow. The point is TLO is completely misinterpreting the situation. There is no moral obligation and certainly no contractual obligation to talk to Coach Lee before asking Puma. In fact, I'd say that EG did more than they needed to, and more than I would have done. Player not contracted? Do whatever you like. It's not tapping up if they're not under contract. TSL only has themselves to blame. By saying EG is 'evil' and 'acting morally questionably' is absolutely and totally ridiculous and I would certainly have expected more understanding of that from someone like TLO. Unfortunately that isn't the case and now we have the whole of TL on EG's back for no good reason when the fact of the matter is, Alex Garfield could not be more right. The sooner everyone else realises that this is a business world and understands the implications of that, the sooner they can all catch up to teams like EG. Esports will never grow until they do. Most of us, like TLO, aren't looking at this at all the right way. You can tell from Weapon of Choice that Alex literally can't even understand what the fuss is about, and he's right.

The only real response anyone could have to this position is the stance that Milkis took on the WoC. He claimed that there is a moral or cultural obligation and that we need to respect the Korean culture and therefore EG behaved wrongly because they didn't do that. Totally untrue also. This game is global, not restricted to Korea. It's not a matter of culture. Esports is rapidly evolving and becoming something people can make money off of. If you want to keep your good players, you contract them. Don't expect your best players to not get taken when you haven't even done that. This world isn't sunshine and fucking fairies, it's business. Teams like EG trying to make money don't and shouldn't care about some team loyalty because that isn't their department. If the offer to the player is the right deal, they're going to tell you where to shove your loyalty.

More to the point, and I cannot stress this enough, EG would have gone through the correct paths if the player was contracted. They wouldn't have gone to Puma first, you can see that from past deals they have done with MTW for example. EG did nothing wrong, they just understand how the world works. How can you blame them when they've done nothing wrong? Even more importantly, if Puma was contracted, EG would have been inadvertently fulfilling these 'cultural' requirements, because they would have spoken to TSL first. If EG is meant to understand the Korean culture, the Koreans should understand EG's, theirs being that contracts mean a hell of a lot more than a simple loyal tie to a team. That may not be how it works in Korea, but it is in the west. Had they done that in the first place, then this shitstorm would never have happened.

EG saw the perfect opportunity to expand and greaten their team, and they did it breaking no rules. TSL have only themselves to blame. Let the other Korean teams learn from their mistakes.

On July 23 2011 05:20 DueSs wrote:



I'm done with this argument circle. I'm going to get myself banned if I continue. It's like talking to a wall and expecting a good response.

On July 23 2011 05:10 nuMi22 wrote:
@Cosmic Spiral

What is the title of this thread? If I put this anywhere else I get temp banned for making a new thread. Yes people are bothered about these issues otherwise there wouldn't have been a 200 page thread before WoC. Give me a break please, I just wanted to say what I thought.

On July 23 2011 05:24 CeriseCherries wrote:


Translation by default is neutral. However, if you read what I had wrote, you would realize I am not critiquing the translation. However, remember Milkis is not just a community member doing something of a kind heart- by being the translator for TeamLiquid, a site that delivers "Starcraft Progaming News," he puts away his own opinions in order to deliver a clean and unbiased view. He is only a translator, but as a conduit of news, it is up to him to fact check and report the way any other journalist does. He, by delivering the news, becomes more than just a translator, but takes the responsibility of a journalist. Its not his story, but he is the broadcaster.

Now if through use of tweets, Milkis demonstrates that he is not just neutral, but that he has a stake in the argument and a side to pick, then his supposedly neutral translations are called into question. This is easiest to contextualize in a grander scale: Joe Biden, during the Swine Flu scare, said that if it were up to him, he would not fly on a plane because of how easily germs are spread. This happened in tandem to the White House encouraging travel, in fears of a declining tourism industry. Biden would not be able to represent TeamLiquid and himself at the same time; neither can Milkis. You can point out Milkis is a volunteer (thank you Milkis), but the role is unchanged. He took on a role for TeamLiquid, and inherited the consequences.

Content does not even matter: its just that as a neutral reporter, he cannot broadcast his bias so broadly. I am not faulting his translations, nor his tweets. I am faulting them in conjunction with the other; he cannot exist as a dual role as a commentator and a reporter. It lends doubt to both his comments and his reports.

And maybe I have the IQ of a toaster, bias can be subtle: connotation matters; so does tone. A fight can have a man savage a victim or hit a combatant. A sardonic comment can be mistranslated, and a joke can be an insult. I'm not accusing anyone of intentional mistranslation, but it is can be done.

On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:



Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself.

You say:
"Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?

"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?

You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg.

On July 23 2011 05:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:


No one is bothered by the fact that Puma left TSL to (apparently) go to a foreign team. HwangSin did the same and everyone was happy. Alive did the same and everyone was happy. It was the way it went down that made everyone go nuts.

And to your credit you are right: Puma was not under contract and therefore EG was free to approach him and make him an offer. And if EG had done that in the open none of this would have happened. Coach Lee would have no reason to feel like Puma was "stolen" from him behind his back, there would have been no "premature" PlayXP article, EG would never have sunken into this PR nightmare that they were clearly not prepared to deal with, the responsibility of telling his team would not have fallen to Puma (which he failed to do and made the issue worse), and there would have been no terribly moderated Weapon of Choice to further piss off the community.

So all of this falls on EG's shoulders. They were the initiators of this entire scenario, which means they are directly responsible for making sure the entire deal goes smoothly and showcases them in a positive light. It is not Milkis' responsibility to make them look good (and that is not the point of "journalism" either), it is not the TL's community's responsibility to support EG when they can't even whip their PR branch into shape on the issue, and it is not Lee's responsibility to smile and give the thumbs up to the transaction if it pisses him off.

And please do not talk to me about this being "progress" in the world of E-Sports. If anything this is a detriment because of the very real reactions that are underway in Korea. Do you honestly think this business model promotes the cultivation of talent outside of Korea? Do you really think organizations like EG will bother with coaches, strict training, and scouting to acquire/train good players if they can simply buy them from Korean teams? Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?

On July 23 2011 05:42 LegendaryZ wrote:
Just to throw this out there, but creating a scenario where teams are going to feel threatened enough to put all of their players on contracts is not necessarily a good thing either. Look at TSL. Do you think they're magically going to have money to pay their players now that they're signing them to contracts? Of course not. Most likely these players are going to be put in legally binding contracts with the same exact conditions that they are currently in (a room and food with no salary). So how exactly does this do anything to improve the players' situations or further eSports? You've effectively created a situation where teams are going to limit players' rights while adding nothing to the scene to improve the situation for either the teams or the players.

On July 23 2011 05:45 RogueStatus wrote:
Collective bargaining is a process of negotiations between employers and the representatives of a unit of employees aimed at reaching agreements that regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?

On July 23 2011 05:41 Dr.Sin wrote:
Let's boil all of this down:

-It has been well established that EG was within its right to recruit Puma.

-EG publically apologized to Mr. Lee and proposed to call him personally to again apologize.

What's the problem?