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On July 23 2011 04:24 DueSs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:22 cactuschewer wrote:
I don't understand how this thread got 342 pages, there can't be that many legitimate points to argue about that either haven't been argued before, or are just not important. Some people on TL really think that it's their place to make some kind of argument that benefits no one and is filled with conclusions that don't even make sense or are relevant.
And I'm pretty certain arguing whose fault it was or whether someone lacked respect will change absolutely nothing, what's done is done. To be frank, I'd take a rather large bet that at least 50 of the pages are filled with posts like this complaining about the argument circling or the topic in general. You just contributed to that page count.
I figured you may have noticed that I didn't even read the thread, a lot of people haven't read past the first page and the person they're responding to, all the more reason this thread is stupid, what you said has further proved my point :/
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting.
It's not Milkis' fault that some people cannot seperate his translation work (which is completely without added bias) and his personal opinions. Should Milkis be gagged because they are too foolish or stubborn to realise this?
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On July 23 2011 04:29 cactuschewer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:24 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:22 cactuschewer wrote:
I don't understand how this thread got 342 pages, there can't be that many legitimate points to argue about that either haven't been argued before, or are just not important. Some people on TL really think that it's their place to make some kind of argument that benefits no one and is filled with conclusions that don't even make sense or are relevant.
And I'm pretty certain arguing whose fault it was or whether someone lacked respect will change absolutely nothing, what's done is done. To be frank, I'd take a rather large bet that at least 50 of the pages are filled with posts like this complaining about the argument circling or the topic in general. You just contributed to that page count. I figured you may have noticed that I didn't even read the thread, a lot of people haven't read past the first page and the person they're responding to, all the more reason this thread is stupid, what you said has further proved my point :/
I had an important edit to my post that you must have skipped. Also, nothing further proved your point (see edit: even though I agree with you). lol.
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On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting.
Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself.
You say:
"Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?
"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?
You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg.
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I feel like EG has the attitude of a 6-year old at a lunch table. A group of people sees some trash and tells the kid to pick it up, but he claims it's not his, even though everyone else thinks it is his. Whether or not it's his or not, he should just fucking pick it up and make everyone happy. That's the best thing you can do as a person or a businesses -- make people happy, whether you feel you need to or not.
If they would've just handled this a little better -- both before the news leaked and after -- they could've avoided a lot of shit, and I think they probably want to avoid a lot shit, even if it means doing something they don't think was 100% vital. Talk to the coach, apologize to all parties, issue a formal press release, don't talk shit on Twitter, etc., etc.. There's was no backlash for Rain or Hwangsin, granted they are certainly players of less fame and were picked up by teams of less fame, but since they were handled correctly (as far as we all know) it was all but praise and good feedback from TL.
Whatever -- any publicity is good publicity I guess.
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On July 23 2011 04:42 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I feel like EG has the attitude of a 6-year old at a lunch table. A group of people sees some trash and tells the kid to pick it up, but he claims it's not his, even though everyone else thinks it is his. Whether or not it's his or not, he should just fucking pick it up and make everyone happy. That's the best thing you can do as a person or a businesses -- make people happy, whether you feel you need to or not.
If they would've just handled this a little better -- both before the news leaked and after -- they could've avoided a lot of shit, and I think they probably want to avoid a lot shit, even if it means doing something they don't think was 100% vital. Talk to the coach, apologize to all parties, issue a formal press release, don't talk shit on Twitter, etc., etc.. There's was no backlash for Rain or Hwangsin, granted they are certainly players of less fame and were picked up by teams of less fame, but since they were handled correctly (as far as we all know) it was all but praise and good feedback from TL.
Whatever -- any publicity is good publicity I guess.
I have no idea what you are trying to say, nor how you came to any of those conclusions. EG haven't done anything except approach a player and sign them.
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On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg.
Alex's point wasnt that the translation was biased. It was that because Milkis is the main source of information for the TL community, it was journalistically irresponsible for him to only present one side of the story and then take such an inflammatory stance publicly.
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ffffffffffffffffff my fantasy
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I've been weary towards the EG organization since they nabbed the Complexity 1.6 roster a few years back. That was complete bull. This Puma signing is more or less the same thing except this time, they had little control over the news going public and Garfield got upset.
It just comes down to respect amongst teams and you'd hope an organization like EG who is part of the G7 (http://www.g7teams.com/page/aboutg7/) would try to set an example instead of doing it again. If you read that page there's this blurb:
G7 aims to:
* Improve and represent e-sports in all its aspects, as well as provide a platform for stability for member teams
* Provide a communication channel for the community to improve e-sports, through the unification of teams
* Strive to achieve the following; cooperate with leagues and tournament organizers, standardize player transfers amongst teams, represent stability for players signed to member teams, provide a professional, information based website about e-sports
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EDIT: Sorry for wall of text but I didn't want to make a new thread because it would have just got closed.
After watching Weapon of Choice on the matter I developed a view of my own on the matter, one which appears to be in the minority on TL.
I'm going to outright defend EG here, not for any reason other than they are absolutely and totally right in this situation and don't deserve any of the flack they are getting.
We all appear to have a major fundamental goal when it comes to Esports, and that's that we all want it to be huge just like any other normal sport. This is what everyone eventually wants to happen with constant growth of the scene and it's a realistic goal. However with all this growth and us wanting Esports to have a similar (although obviously less) limelight to sports like football for example, we need to adapt our system to one that is actually going to work alongside that goal. My point is that we can NEVER expect that to happen when some teams are not contracting players. It's just never going to happen and it's not even close to realistic. It's a joke to even consider Esports in the same breath if we're not going to entirely incorporate it as a fundamental. Along with this comes Esports as a business opportunity, clearly as EG are seeing it. They're trying to make money of Starcraft 2 and they see it expanding just as we all want it to.
In football, everybody is contracted if they mean anything to a team. The proper path to take when approaching a contracted player is to go through a team, and guess what, if they're not contracted, you can go directly to the player and offer them a contract. You can even do this as a contract is nearing expiration. EG is a business and understands what that means. They know all about contracts and what they're allowed to do, and they know they were allowed to approach Puma and were completely correct in doing so. They broke no rules or laws. If anyone in football isn't contracted, that team can expect to lose that player if they're good, and why wouldn't they? Say a young player wasn't under contract (laughable considering football is a sport and understands the business element that comes with it), but suppose it for the sake of this hypothetical situation. Sure that team was giving them a pitch to train on and players to practise with, but when a massive team comes in with a new opportunity, offering them a salary, why the hell wouldn't they leave? This is how sports work, and it is how Esports needs to work if its going to grow. If you want to keep a player, you fucking contract them or you're going to get 'bit in the ass' as Alex Garfield correctly stated. This is a business world, what the fuck do you all expect. Seriously?
Unfortunately, people like TLO have made blogs about it and the sheep will follow. The point is TLO is completely misinterpreting the situation. There is no moral obligation and certainly no contractual obligation to talk to Coach Lee before asking Puma. In fact, I'd say that EG did more than they needed to, and more than I would have done. Player not contracted? Do whatever you like. It's not tapping up if they're not under contract. TSL only has themselves to blame. By saying EG is 'evil' and 'acting morally questionably' is absolutely and totally ridiculous and I would certainly have expected more understanding of that from someone like TLO. Unfortunately that isn't the case and now we have the whole of TL on EG's back for no good reason when the fact of the matter is, Alex Garfield could not be more right. The sooner everyone else realises that this is a business world and understands the implications of that, the sooner they can all catch up to teams like EG. Esports will never grow until they do. Most of us, like TLO, aren't looking at this at all the right way. You can tell from Weapon of Choice that Alex literally can't even understand what the fuss is about, and he's right.
The only real response anyone could have to this position is the stance that Milkis took on the WoC. He claimed that there is a moral or cultural obligation and that we need to respect the Korean culture and therefore EG behaved wrongly because they didn't do that. Totally untrue also. This game is global, not restricted to Korea. It's not a matter of culture. Esports is rapidly evolving and becoming something people can make money off of. If you want to keep your good players, you contract them. Don't expect your best players to not get taken when you haven't even done that. This world isn't sunshine and fucking fairies, it's business. Teams like EG trying to make money don't and shouldn't care about some team loyalty because that isn't their department. If the offer to the player is the right deal, they're going to tell you where to shove your loyalty.
More to the point, and I cannot stress this enough, EG would have gone through the correct paths if the player was contracted. They wouldn't have gone to Puma first, you can see that from past deals they have done with MTW for example. EG did nothing wrong, they just understand how the world works. How can you blame them when they've done nothing wrong? Even more importantly, if Puma was contracted, EG would have been inadvertently fulfilling these 'cultural' requirements, because they would have spoken to TSL first. If EG is meant to understand the Korean culture, the Koreans should understand EG's, theirs being that contracts mean a hell of a lot more than a simple loyal tie to a team. That may not be how it works in Korea, but it is in the west. Had they done that in the first place, then this shitstorm would never have happened.
EG saw the perfect opportunity to expand and greaten their team, and they did it breaking no rules. TSL have only themselves to blame. Let the other Korean teams learn from their mistakes.
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On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg.
While i agree that ideally, he'd be able to translate neutrally and have his opinions on his own twitter, this isn't a perfect world. Everyone has to realize that you can't keep social media (TL & Twitter, for example), in completely separate and different compartments.
Once people know that you've got both, your posts in one will bleed over into the other. there's absolutely no way to escape that. As people gain notariety, it's just something that people have to come to terms with. This is why we see professional athletes being fined for tweeting about refs or coaches from the bench. Because in today's world you simply can't separate things anymore.
As for not being able to lend translations bias, i highly disagree. There's a lot of small subtle ways you can influence how your readers will end up viewing your entire article, and still translate what's said. It's not as simple as a word for word replacement. There are a lot of words that mean similar things, but have extremely different connotations.
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On July 23 2011 04:53 theliman2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. Alex's point wasnt that the translation was biased. It was that because Milkis is the main source of information for the TL community, it was journalistically irresponsible for him to only present one side of the story and then take such an inflammatory stance publicly.
What part of Milkis not being a journalist do you not understand? He simply translated the only available source of information on this subject at the time for TL.
He even asked EG for an official statement so he could present both sides of the picture but they flatly refused by saying nothing while this issue got bigger and bigger. It doesn't help that some members of EG were trolling the community during this whole mess.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 05:01 nuMi22 wrote:
EDIT: Sorry for wall of text but I didn't want to make a new thread because it would have just got closed.
After watching Weapon of Choice on the matter I developed a view of my own on the matter, one which appears to be in the minority on TL.
I'm going to outright defend EG here, not for any reason other than they are absolutely and totally right in this situation and don't deserve any of the flack they are getting.
We all appear to have a major fundamental goal when it comes to Esports, and that's that we all want it to be huge just like any other normal sport. This is what everyone eventually wants to happen with constant growth of the scene and it's a realistic goal. However with all this growth and us wanting Esports to have a similar (although obviously less) limelight to sports like football for example, we need to adapt our system to one that is actually going to work alongside that goal. My point is that we can NEVER expect that to happen when some teams are not contracting players. It's just never going to happen and it's not even close to realistic. It's a joke to even consider Esports in the same breath if we're not going to entirely incorporate it as a fundamental. Along with this comes Esports as a business opportunity, clearly as EG are seeing it. They're trying to make money of Starcraft 2 and they see it expanding just as we all want it to.
In football, everybody is contracted if they mean anything to a team. The proper path to take when approaching a contracted player is to go through a team, and guess what, if they're not contracted, you can go directly to the player and offer them a contract. You can even do this as a contract is nearing expiration. EG is a business and understands what that means. They know all about contracts and what they're allowed to do, and they know they were allowed to approach Puma and were completely correct in doing so. They broke no rules or laws. If anyone in football isn't contracted, that team can expect to lose that player if they're good, and why wouldn't they? Say a young player wasn't under contract (laughable considering football is a sport and understands the business element that comes with it), but suppose it for the sake of this hypothetical situation. Sure that team was giving them a pitch to train on and players to practise with, but when a massive team comes in with a new opportunity, offering them a salary, why the hell wouldn't they leave? This is how sports work, and it is how Esports needs to work if its going to grow. If you want to keep a player, you fucking contract them or you're going to get 'bit in the ass' as Alex Garfield correctly stated. This is a business world, what the fuck do you all expect. Seriously?
Unfortunately, people like TLO have made blogs about it and the sheep will follow. The point is TLO is completely misinterpreting the situation. There is no moral obligation and certainly no contractual obligation to talk to Coach Lee before asking Puma. In fact, I'd say that EG did more than they needed to, and more than I would have done. Player not contracted? Do whatever you like. It's not tapping up if they're not under contract. TSL only has themselves to blame. By saying EG is 'evil' and 'acting morally questionably' is absolutely and totally ridiculous and I would certainly have expected more understanding of that from someone like TLO. Unfortunately that isn't the case and now we have the whole of TL on EG's back for no good reason when the fact of the matter is, Alex Garfield could not be more right. The sooner everyone else realises that this is a business world and understands the implications of that, the sooner they can all catch up to teams like EG. Esports will never grow until they do. Most of us, like TLO, aren't looking at this at all the right way. You can tell from Weapon of Choice that Alex literally can't even understand what the fuss is about, and he's right.
The only real response anyone could have to this position is the stance that Milkis took on the WoC. He claimed that there is a moral or cultural obligation and that we need to respect the Korean culture and therefore EG behaved wrongly because they didn't do that. Totally untrue also. This game is global, not restricted to Korea. It's not a matter of culture. Esports is rapidly evolving and becoming something people can make money off of. If you want to keep your good players, you contract them. Don't expect your best players to not get taken when you haven't even done that. This world isn't sunshine and fucking fairies, it's business. Teams like EG trying to make money don't and shouldn't care about some team loyalty because that isn't their department. If the offer to the player is the right deal, they're going to tell you where to shove your loyalty.
More to the point, and I cannot stress this enough, EG would have gone through the correct paths if the player was contracted. They wouldn't have gone to Puma first, you can see that from past deals they have done with MTW for example. EG did nothing wrong, they just understand how the world works. How can you blame them when they've done nothing wrong? Even more importantly, if Puma was contracted, EG would have been inadvertently fulfilling these 'cultural' requirements, because they would have spoken to TSL first. If EG is meant to understand the Korean culture, the Koreans should understand EG's, theirs being that contracts mean a hell of a lot more than a simple loyal tie to a team. That may not be how it works in Korea, but it is in the west. Had they done that in the first place, then this shitstorm would never have happened.
EG saw the perfect opportunity to expand and greaten their team, and they did it breaking no rules. TSL have only themselves to blame. Let the other Korean teams learn from their mistakes.
You wasted +500 words simply to create an elaborate strawman while addressing none of the issues people actually care about. Just like what Alex did when he was on Weapon of Choice.
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@Cosmic Spiral
What is the title of this thread? If I put this anywhere else I get temp banned for making a new thread. Yes people are bothered about these issues otherwise there wouldn't have been a 200 page thread before WoC. Give me a break please, I just wanted to say what I thought.
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On July 23 2011 05:03 Envisage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 04:53 theliman2000 wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. Alex's point wasnt that the translation was biased. It was that because Milkis is the main source of information for the TL community, it was journalistically irresponsible for him to only present one side of the story and then take such an inflammatory stance publicly. What part of Milkis not being a journalist do you not understand? He simply translated the only available source of information on this subject at the time for TL. He even asked EG for an official statement so he could present both sides of the picture but they flatly refused by saying nothing while this issue got bigger and bigger. It doesn't help that some members of EG were trolling the community during this whole mess.
But i feel like that's part of the issue. It wasn't presented in a, "Here's a translation i did" fashion. It was kind of presented in a, "Here's this developing story," and then he started saying his own opinions, which, unfortunately, he cannot distance himself from when presenting breaking news.
Even if it was "only a translation," he WAS our source of news for this story, we all came to him for the information. As he tinted it with his twitter opinions, it colored his story, and it took on a journalistic appearance.
I can see how someone would easily make the conclusion that he was in fact a journalist for this particular story
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So what's pumas plan for practice partners since it said he is staying in Korea and EG having no other players in Korea? Could be very detrimental to his progression and maintaining of skill if he doesn't have a real team around him.
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On July 23 2011 05:13 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:03 Envisage wrote:On July 23 2011 04:53 theliman2000 wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. Alex's point wasnt that the translation was biased. It was that because Milkis is the main source of information for the TL community, it was journalistically irresponsible for him to only present one side of the story and then take such an inflammatory stance publicly. What part of Milkis not being a journalist do you not understand? He simply translated the only available source of information on this subject at the time for TL. He even asked EG for an official statement so he could present both sides of the picture but they flatly refused by saying nothing while this issue got bigger and bigger. It doesn't help that some members of EG were trolling the community during this whole mess. But i feel like that's part of the issue. It wasn't presented in a, "Here's a translation i did" fashion. It was kind of presented in a, "Here's this developing story," and then he started saying his own opinions, which, unfortunately, he cannot distance himself from when presenting breaking news. Even if it was "only a translation," he WAS our source of news for this story, we all came to him for the information. As he tinted it with his twitter opinions, it colored his story, and it took on a journalistic appearance. I can see how someone would easily make the conclusion that he was in fact a journalist for this particular story
I'm done with this argument circle. I'm going to get myself banned if I continue. It's like talking to a wall and expecting a good response.
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On July 23 2011 05:10 nuMi22 wrote:
@Cosmic Spiral
What is the title of this thread? If I put this anywhere else I get temp banned for making a new thread. Yes people are bothered about these issues otherwise there wouldn't have been a 200 page thread before WoC. Give me a break please, I just wanted to say what I thought.
Their actions are certainly morally questionable. I don't buy Alex's nonsense about furthering eSports or defamation or anything else for that matter. You can argue that their actions are legally sound, or perhaps even financially clever, but you certainly can't argue that they're respectful. Perhaps in your perfect storm of lassaiz-faire capitalism they are, but in the real world they aren't. Stop pretending otherwise. The very fact that the vast majority of people are pissed lends credence to the notion that this is disrespectful, as respect is a subjective concept. EG should have known better. In fact, I bet they DID know better, they just didn't give a shit because, as I've stated many times, EG doesn't care about eSports's long term future except insofar as it gives EG more marketability. They're decent businessmen, I'll give them that. But they're also opportunistic, narrow, and dogmatic.
Oh, and they continue to lie to the faces of the community members about their commitment to fair play and all that jazz.
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I heard the owners of the teams have voted and approved a tentative Collective Bargaining Agreement. It is now up to the players and the Players Association to approve the proposed terms of the CBA. They have until Tuesday.
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TL gets to have it's cake and eat it too.....
They are a Team, a website, a community, and a news organization depending on the circumstances.
Has TL ever made any mistakes or admitted to doing anything wrong? Does the TL community show favoritism for TL players and events? TL is unbiased... excepts where its in their interest?
All AG did was point out his frustration with having to compete and deal with TL and all its iterations. From his standpoint, it was a bit whiny and he shouldn't expect sympathy, but its understandable how he feels. TL and EG are competitors.
Other than his pointing out TL's tri-polarness, I though Alex Garfield sounded like the most business savvy person I've heard speak in SC2.
Hate him if you like, but EG's going to get a Top 5 terran in the world, and AG's job is to get EG's name at the top of tournaments so sponsors notice.
SC2 business is not a game! When money is on the line, some people play to win. Expect it!
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EPT
