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On July 23 2011 05:58 nuMi22 wrote:
I explained why there needs to be contracts in my initial post a few pages back. You can't expect Esports to take off without them, it's just not possible.
I agree that there eventually needs to be contracts, but they have to happen when the scene can support them. Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of one-sided contracts that put control over the players while guaranteeing them nothing in return besides what they would have already gotten without contracts. It's going to end up being KeSPA all over again at this rate.
On July 23 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:
All the more reason for players to not sign a single damn thing in Korea because the mindset out there is broken. If they were able to slide from under that pressure and realize they drive that market, not the teams, then they could flip it back on the Korean teams that are trying to give people potato sacks as payment for their professional gaming services. The players NEED to protect themselves until there is some type of mediation between the players, and the teams.
Not signing a contract = No food, no place to live, no practice environment. Where does that leave the players? Conversely, for the teams, for every player not willing to sign a contract there are probably a hundred that are.
This is all not even considering the fact that SC2 Korean teams are very different from BW teams from an administrative standpoint. Korean SC2 teams ARE pretty much run by the players themselves. They haven't yet reached the type of divide between labor and management where such a dispute would make sense to occur.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On July 23 2011 06:04 Aurdon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch. Very good point.
"Me and Wonki wanted to relax and enjoy games. Being in a team environment was nice but both of us wanted to really enjoy SC2 and leagues. For the purpose of more freedom, I left the team with Wonki, we are now living together."
From the Tester Fanclub, they left to TSL on their own accord.
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On July 23 2011 06:04 h3nG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:57 Dr.Sin wrote:
The apology was verbal on WoC. AG apologized at the start of the show and somewhere in the middle.
To my knowledge, EG has not commented in any way in writing on the whole issue. The rationale AG proposed was that this was because they hadn't actually contracted Puma yet and were waiting to wrap that up before going public. My guess is EG has some of their best writers drafting a statement to win back some fans. To me, it's too late already. I feel like based on the comments laid out on DJWheat's show, if they come out to apologize, they don't really mean it. We no they don't feel like they have done wrong. It's their "successful business model" and how they succeed as a company.
EG doesn't feel sorry for getting Puma, but AG was sorry for offending Mr. Lee. What do you think they should be sorry about?
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On July 23 2011 06:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:48 nuMi22 wrote: Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?
The relations should never have been an issue because there is NO issue over how EG handled the situation with Puma. Yes the Koreans better get used to it, TSL is contracting their players now so they're already doing it. They wouldn't have done it if the foreign scene wasn't an influence. But now it is an issue, despite the offer and departure being perfectly legal and within the player-organization boundaries. Getting contracts is not necessarily a good thing when it's not being done for the sake of the players, and it is not being done so that Nestea and MC can have options. The Korean teams and their sponsors want to protect their investments from the "Western model of business" instead of creating a free market where the players get significant power to choose their own teams. It's very likely that the contracts will restrict player opportunities more than help them.
Why are you assuming contracts can't work? I don't think you fully understand the concept of a contract. It doesn't bind a player to a team forever. You can be bought out of a contract by another team, or if the player wants to go somewhere else he can ask for a transfer and then the contract can be bought out. Signing a contract isn't the be all and end all unless that's the nature of the contract. Esports needs to work like a normal sport in the same way. Without contracts, everyone will just take players all the time and there will be absolute carnage, a free for all.
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On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this
i doubt he meant you did bias your TLs. I think he meant that in his opinion, it is quite possible to bias a TL, which i completely agree with. I don't think your translations are in question here. You seem to stress out quickly :\
EDIT: I doubt he could find you selectively use words, he most likely can't read korean.
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On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this
edit: never mind, it wasn't my intention to discredit you. I stand by what I said however but that's for another topic I guess.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 23 2011 06:14 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this i doubt he meant you did bias your TLs. I think he meant that in his opinion, it is quite possible to bias a TL, which i completely agree with. I don't think your translations are in question here. You seem to stress out quickly :\ EDIT: I doubt he could find you selectively use words, he most likely can't read korean.
How the fuck you do not expect someone to get stressed after being called out on air by the owner of a big ESPORTS company and then being constantly bombarded with similar sentiments from people who just don't get it? Don't try to make Milkis out to be some oversensitive guy here. He's had to deal with a lot of bs in a short period of time.
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On July 23 2011 06:19 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:14 TheStonerer wrote:On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this i doubt he meant you did bias your TLs. I think he meant that in his opinion, it is quite possible to bias a TL, which i completely agree with. I don't think your translations are in question here. You seem to stress out quickly :\ EDIT: I doubt he could find you selectively use words, he most likely can't read korean. How the fuck you do not expect someone to get stressed after being called out on air by the owner of a big ESPORTS company and then being constantly bombarded with similar sentiments from people who just don't get it? Don't try to make Milkis out to be some oversensitive guy here. He's had to deal with a lot of bs in a short period of time.
Get off your high horse. I was talking about the way he responded to the post here. I did not use harsh words, was not aggressive. people are way too angry over this whole thing.
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On July 23 2011 06:08 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:58 nuMi22 wrote:
I explained why there needs to be contracts in my initial post a few pages back. You can't expect Esports to take off without them, it's just not possible. I agree that there eventually needs to be contracts, but they have to happen when the scene can support them. Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of one-sided contracts that put control over the players while guaranteeing them nothing in return besides what they would have already gotten without contracts. It's going to end up being KeSPA all over again at this rate. Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:
All the more reason for players to not sign a single damn thing in Korea because the mindset out there is broken. If they were able to slide from under that pressure and realize they drive that market, not the teams, then they could flip it back on the Korean teams that are trying to give people potato sacks as payment for their professional gaming services. The players NEED to protect themselves until there is some type of mediation between the players, and the teams. Not signing a contract = No food, no place to live, no practice environment. Where does that leave the players? Conversely, for the teams, for every player not willing to sign a contract there are probably a hundred that are. This is all not even considering the fact that SC2 Korean teams are very different from BW teams from an administrative standpoint. Korean SC2 teams ARE pretty much run by the players themselves. They haven't yet reached the type of divide between labor and management where such a dispute would make sense to occur.
Korean SC2 teams ARE pretty much in the rural stages because Korea doesnt have the economic support that BW did. So they're trying to hold onto these players despite not having that "model" BW environment. Not going to fly.
If the players sign contracts now, I certainly hope they are VERY short term. As in MAXIMUM one year. Because once it gets out how worthless these contracts are that BIND the Korean players to play in the very secluded Korean market, the global market will be clamoring to get some of those guys in much more lucrative, expansive, and viable contract situations.
I understand that Korea is now going to probably start mandating their players to sign contracts. That's fine. That's their perogative, and it's really unfortunate for the players there to have to be subjected to that setting no matter what. Until Korea hops on board with globalizing their guys, this will always be a problem, and it will always be "ours vs theirs" for Korea. Instead of helping the reset of the world grow, they want the rest of the world to implode into them if they want to play with the Korean talent.
Hopefully things can happen elsewhere that can help dodge a Kespa 2.0 situation that more or less seals Koreas fate.
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On July 23 2011 06:17 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this That's the nature of it, there's no way for me to tell since I don't speak Korean and I never said you did. I do know however that you're very pro-kespa and pro-bw and as such I don't find you a credible source regarding Kespa v Blizzard. In that regard I can see some problem with how Korean news are posted on TL, it's not an optimal situation to have news posters with a clear bias.
So because you can't prove it and he has an opinion it is correct?
Right.... ok...
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This is the same feeling as when a big european football team, with the money, signs some brazilian young guy. They get a lot of money, and with that they support the team.
Korean scene should do the same. Make contracts, and with the money they get from selling out players, keep supporting the others.
Brazil has been the Meca of football, but still, doesnt have the same money support, so they export their players.
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On July 23 2011 06:17 Longshank wrote:
That's the nature of it, there's no way for me to tell since I don't speak Korean and I never said you did. I do know however that you're very pro-kespa and pro-bw and as such I don't find you a credible source regarding Kespa v Blizzard . In that regard I can see some problem with how Korean news are posted on TL, it's not an optimal situation to have news posters with a clear bias.
So with this line you are assuming that he translates biased, just because he has an opinion on this matter? You know...everybody has an opinion, we are no robots.
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I don't get how people get all anxious over contracts... People suddenly think that SC2 will go BW KeSPA mode just because this happened, are people stupid? A simply contract that binds players or punishes them for doing such a thing as leaving their team (when tied to a contract) is normal in any sport and has nothing to do with KeSPA...
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On July 23 2011 06:25 Usagi wrote:
This is the same feeling as when a big european football team, with the money, signs some brazilian young guy. They get a lot of money, and with that they support the team.
Korean scene should do the same. Make contracts, and with the money they get from selling out players, keep supporting the others.
Brazil has been the Meca of football, but still, doesnt have the same money support, so they export their players.
That's actually a funny idea that I think would work, and makes sense. Though, according to the korean culture, i guess they wouldn't want to do that.
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On July 23 2011 06:27 sereniity wrote:
I don't get how people get all anxious over contracts... People suddenly think that SC2 will go BW KeSPA mode just because this happened, are people stupid? A simply contract that binds players or punishes them for doing such a thing as leaving their team (when tied to a contract) is normal in any sport and has nothing to do with KeSPA...
When they exert that kind of control without guaranteeing their players payment or any compensation aside from food and a place to sleep, it's actually not that far off from what KeSPA does, which is why a lot of people are concerned.
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On July 23 2011 06:27 sereniity wrote:
I don't get how people get all anxious over contracts... People suddenly think that SC2 will go BW KeSPA mode just because this happened, are people stupid? A simply contract that binds players or punishes them for doing such a thing as leaving their team (when tied to a contract) is normal in any sport and has nothing to do with KeSPA...
It IS normal, I agree.
But that doesnt mean its good for the players, or the state of E-sports on an international level.
Especially without a really well thought out infrastructure and union to protect the players that will likely now be forced into contracts that they have no say over or kicked to the curb.
Who' is ACTUALLY anxious over contracts to Korean players? The international scene, or Korea?
Again.
Global SC2 Scene is best off involving Korea
Korea is best off not involving Korea.
Contracts will only insure that their country was able to go into full defense mode so they can monopolize their players.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 06:13 nuMi22 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 05:48 nuMi22 wrote: Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?
The relations should never have been an issue because there is NO issue over how EG handled the situation with Puma. Yes the Koreans better get used to it, TSL is contracting their players now so they're already doing it. They wouldn't have done it if the foreign scene wasn't an influence. But now it is an issue, despite the offer and departure being perfectly legal and within the player-organization boundaries. Getting contracts is not necessarily a good thing when it's not being done for the sake of the players, and it is not being done so that Nestea and MC can have options. The Korean teams and their sponsors want to protect their investments from the "Western model of business" instead of creating a free market where the players get significant power to choose their own teams. It's very likely that the contracts will restrict player opportunities more than help them. Why are you assuming contracts can't work? I don't think you fully understand the concept of a contract. It doesn't bind a player to a team forever. You can be bought out of a contract by another team, or if the player wants to go somewhere else he can ask for a transfer and then the contract can be bought out. Signing a contract isn't the be all and end all unless that's the nature of the contract. Esports needs to work like a normal sport in the same way. Without contracts, everyone will just take players all the time and there will be absolute carnage, a free for all.
I don't think you fully understand the point of a contract. The limitations of a contract are dictated by the interests of the parties involved in it, and right now there is no governing body that decides what is an appropriate/inappropriate contract in the Korean SC2 scene. In fact, that is what's happening right now.
So no, I'm not assuming contracts won't work. I'm expecting that if contracts are standardized, they will be done to restrict Korean talent to the Korean scene. There isn't enough money in the Korean SC2 scene to support a free agent market or bidding wars between Korean teams, and Korean teams will not support it since at the moment foreign organizations will always have more money to use as incentive. Professional SC2 in Korea does not have the infrastructure to ensure that both the teams and the players receive equal benefit from contracts either.
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On July 23 2011 06:20 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:19 Telcontar wrote:On July 23 2011 06:14 TheStonerer wrote:On July 23 2011 06:00 Milkis wrote:On July 23 2011 05:42 Longshank wrote:On July 23 2011 04:37 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:27 CeriseCherries wrote:On July 23 2011 04:19 DueSs wrote:On July 23 2011 04:15 SeigO wrote:
No ones talking about the translation. Milkis interactions throughout the whole thing ie: his posts in the thread and his tweets made me think he was a TSL affiliate or someone personally involved rather than someone relaying a message.
Why does someone who gives HIMSELF the responsibility of translating a language from Korean to English have to be mum on the topic he translated? Who gave him this title of journalist besides Alex? Why can't Milkies interact with a word to word translation he had the skill to translate? Why can't Milkies interact and take a side? Milkies isn't nothing more than a translator. He works for no one. He holds responsibility to NO ONE BUT HIMSELF. The problem is that there is a duality here for Milkis. I agree, he is just a translator- but by tweeting provactively, he is taking a side and defending an interest; his own interest, but one that happens to side with one of the two parties in his neutrally translated article. So what happened as a result of his tweets is that by proxy, his article feels charged. The problem is that Milkis cannot represent simultaneously himself and a neutral party, and that is what may be getting people up in arms. If he wants to remain neutral, he must carefully word his statements. Otherwise, people will see bias in everything he writes- its just perception. So yes, in a perfect world Milkis should be able to report neutrally and tweet his opinons, but in this one, having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting. Literally baffled at this. STILL you portray Milkies as a journalist that has to be held accountable to someone besides himself. You say: "Milkies should be able to report neutrally"..... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?"having these opinons based off his own worldview distorts in some minds the credibillity of reporting."... omg, he. is. a. translator. How can he neutrally translate things?You can't have an IQ above that of a toaster and not know that you CAN'T BIAS A TRANSLATION. omg. While I completely support Milkis in this, you're terribly wrong. You can bias a translation a great deal. Due to his heavy pro-kespa stance I've taken what he's been reporting from the Blizzard vs Kespa affair with a grain of salt. With a selective use of words you can spinn the message quite a bit without directly be lying or making stuff up. I would like you to name one case where I "selectively used words" to spin the message. Please. Go through all of my Blizzard vs KeSPA translations and go through them and find one time I did this i doubt he meant you did bias your TLs. I think he meant that in his opinion, it is quite possible to bias a TL, which i completely agree with. I don't think your translations are in question here. You seem to stress out quickly :\ EDIT: I doubt he could find you selectively use words, he most likely can't read korean. How the fuck you do not expect someone to get stressed after being called out on air by the owner of a big ESPORTS company and then being constantly bombarded with similar sentiments from people who just don't get it? Don't try to make Milkis out to be some oversensitive guy here. He's had to deal with a lot of bs in a short period of time. Get off your high horse. I was talking about the way he responded to the post here. I did not use harsh words, was not aggressive. people are way too angry over this whole thing.
AG didnt use harsh words and was not aggresive either, He used passive loaded statements to try and discredit milkis all the while saying he wasnt doing those exact things. Sounds kind of like you a little bit.
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On July 23 2011 06:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:13 nuMi22 wrote:On July 23 2011 06:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 05:48 nuMi22 wrote: Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?
The relations should never have been an issue because there is NO issue over how EG handled the situation with Puma. Yes the Koreans better get used to it, TSL is contracting their players now so they're already doing it. They wouldn't have done it if the foreign scene wasn't an influence. But now it is an issue, despite the offer and departure being perfectly legal and within the player-organization boundaries. Getting contracts is not necessarily a good thing when it's not being done for the sake of the players, and it is not being done so that Nestea and MC can have options. The Korean teams and their sponsors want to protect their investments from the "Western model of business" instead of creating a free market where the players get significant power to choose their own teams. It's very likely that the contracts will restrict player opportunities more than help them. Why are you assuming contracts can't work? I don't think you fully understand the concept of a contract. It doesn't bind a player to a team forever. You can be bought out of a contract by another team, or if the player wants to go somewhere else he can ask for a transfer and then the contract can be bought out. Signing a contract isn't the be all and end all unless that's the nature of the contract. Esports needs to work like a normal sport in the same way. Without contracts, everyone will just take players all the time and there will be absolute carnage, a free for all. I don't think you fully understand the point of a contract. The limitations of a contract are dictated by the interests of the parties involved in it, and right now there is no governing body that decides what is an appropriate/inappropriate contract in the Korean SC2 scene. In fact, that is what's happening right now. So no, I'm not assuming contracts won't work. I'm expecting that if contracts are standardized, they will be done to restrict Korean talent to the Korean scene. There isn't enough money in the Korean SC2 scene to support a free agent market or bidding wars between Korean teams.
Except getting payed contract fees for giving out players to foreign teams brings money to the korean scene, which in returns helps everything grow (assuming the foreign team manages to makes profit and expand following this contract).
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EPT
