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On July 23 2011 06:04 Odoakar wrote:
Just another checkmark on my 'why I really, really dislike EG' list. Nothing more.
Everyone is talking about players right to leave wherever they want, but very few think about the expenses teams have to make to help these players train and succeed as players, providing them with free food and place to live, and what do they get in return? Nothing.
I would love for someone to find the actual figures on this. With the way Korean property works, their team apartment is most likely rent free with a deposit from a sponsor. Plenty of people have made a living on the property boom in Korea. It wouldn't even surprise me if they were in an apartment some sponsor already owned and was just waiting to sell in the meantime.
The only out of pocket expenses would be electricity and food. In return for that you had a kid sleeping on a yo in a room with everybody else, and working for you 10 hours a day with no compensation.
The team owner gets money from sponsors for exposure in the GSL, GSTL, etc.
Hey if a kid sees that as a fair deal, then great. But, please don't make it sound like the teams invest a ton of money in someone like Puma. It is waaaaaaaay less than you might be thinking.
How much respect did Puma get back from his coach after putting in all those practice hours? None.
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On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:
Just listened to Weapon of choice.... EG are sly dogs to do what they did and they try patronising the korean guy as to how "international esports works" is pathetic.. maybe thats how US esports is run but not in EU.
Puma has had A LOT of time/money invested in his development and its a piss take that when Koreans get a trip aboard their home teams now have to worry about sly teams like EG trying to poach their players then justify it.
Find it funny Alex talks about how sc2 cant be handled the same way sc1 was in korea because "it will effect the growth of the sport"... clearly he doesnt care about the growth of the sport and is only about the money.
*EDIT*
DJ wheat should stfu trying to justify EGs move on puma, its nothing like FXO or other recent activity.
Clearly you don't care about facts. Puma has not gotten where he is because of TSL. Most of his development was done at Estro in brood war, and he was already good before joining. He is a good player, regardless of where he played.
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On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:
Just listened to Weapon of choice.... EG are sly dogs to do what they did and they try patronising the korean guy as to how "international esports works" is pathetic.. maybe thats how US esports is run but not in EU.
Puma has had A LOT of time/money invested in his development and its a piss take that when Koreans get a trip aboard their home teams now have to worry about sly teams like EG trying to poach their players then justify it.
Find it funny Alex talks about how sc2 cant be handled the same way sc1 was in korea because "it will effect the growth of the sport"... clearly he doesnt care about the growth of the sport and is only about the money.
*EDIT*
DJ wheat should stfu trying to justify EGs move on puma, its nothing like FXO or other recent activity.
You must be new to the EU, or simply uninformed.
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I find it hilarious that people here honestly think that these teams are in it for the money. Opening a taco stand will get your more revenue. Any high school level business classes can teach you enough to know that a shaky scene like competitive video games is a risk, unless you already have money, than is not a risk people take to go in it for the money, its a risk because they love the sport.
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On July 23 2011 07:28 integrity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 06:55 darthfoley wrote:
wonder what EG could actually offer PuMa as a legit salary...the world will never know why do you say this has he turn EG down?
I believe the amount was undisclosed, so it won't be revealed at the present time (not that it's any of our business).
He hasn't officially signed with EG yet, but I don't think he's turned EG down either.
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United States3 Posts
Seriously, I don't see what the big deal is, he is his own person, at the end of the day it's his choice what to do, not the coaches. At the end of the day, he is the one playing the games and winning or losing, not the coach. Ya, it wasn't right that EG didn't contact the people they said they were going to, but the fact still remains that in all reality it's the player's choice.
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Clearly you don't care about facts. Puma has not gotten where he is because of TSL. Most of his development was done at Estro in brood war, and he was already good before joining. He is a good player, regardless of where he played.
The only thing sc1 and sc2 have in common is the word starcraft,,, its a totally different game. I heard someone say puma had been "supported" (living + practise etc) for 9~months by TSL, If thats correct then for them to lose their main player just like that is so harsh. EG shoulda went to TSL management first, its a dog ass move to go to the player, especially when he is there representing his team at a LAN event
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On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:
Just listened to Weapon of choice.... EG are sly dogs to do what they did and they try patronising the korean guy as to how "international esports works" is pathetic.. maybe thats how US esports is run but not in EU.
Puma has had A LOT of time/money invested in his development and its a piss take that when Koreans get a trip aboard their home teams now have to worry about sly teams like EG trying to poach their players then justify it.
Find it funny Alex talks about how sc2 cant be handled the same way sc1 was in korea because "it will effect the growth of the sport"... clearly he doesnt care about the growth of the sport and is only about the money.
*EDIT*
DJ wheat should stfu trying to justify EGs move on puma, its nothing like FXO or other recent activity.
No, beacuse in the EU it is worse. The exampe of horrible practise that Alex talked about is the two team SK gaming and Fnatic. One with HQ in Germany and one in.England,
Listen to the latest Lo3 to hear SKs manager explain how real shit gets taken care of.
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On another note, I think it would be equally beneficial if teams in the west localized their pros and made them train just as hard if they wanted the same kind of talent. It's funny to think that our scene is so sub-par that we have to buy talent because we're just now even considering the Korean method. Pretty pathetic that someone like HuK has to work his ass off a decent amount every day to become a decent code S player, while people here with possible equal natural potential sit on rosters playing at a much lower level, because they either can't do what it takes to train to get that good or they can't bear to leave family and friends.... kind of like what most professional athletes do when they get put onto an actual pro team? EG... why not take your players (or players that would agree to it) and put them in a team house to practice 10 hours a day along with the rest of your players if you actually want some world class talent. (think of what someone naturally gifted like IdrA could do if he lived in a place like the IM or SlayerS house). Then again, it's hard to think of any EG members ever attempting something like training with a korean pro team, given their players awesome reputations... save like Machine or someone. 
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after reading Mr lee's interview in the other thread, I dont think anyone can call EG the evil "poaching" company anymore. His team was already in shambles.
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No, beacuse in the EU it is worse. The exampe of horrible practise that Alex talked about is the two team SK gaming and Fnatic. One with HQ in Germany and one in.England,
Listen to the latest Lo3 to hear SKs manager explain how real shit gets taken care of.
I dont really follow the cs 1.6 scene ( i suspect they are talking about that ) , maybe thats where EG get their beleifs from. I have a css + wc3 background
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On July 23 2011 07:48 Vansetsu wrote:On another note, I think it would be equally beneficial if teams in the west localized their pros and made them train just as hard if they wanted the same kind of talent. It's funny to think that our scene is so sub-par that we have to buy talent because we're just now even considering the Korean method. Pretty pathetic that someone like HuK has to work his ass off a decent amount every day to become a decent code S player, while people here with possible equal natural potential sit on rosters playing at a much lower level, because they either can't do what it takes to train to get that good or they can't bear to leave family and friends.... kind of like what most professional athletes do when they get put onto an actual pro team? EG... why not take your players (or players that would agree to it) and put them in a team house to practice 10 hours a day along with the rest of your players if you actually want some world class talent. (think of what someone naturally gifted like IdrA could do if he lived in a place like the IM or SlayerS house). Then again, it's hard to think of any EG members ever attempting something like training with a korean pro team, given their players awesome reputations... save like Machine or someone.
I think you should read how EG is setting up a team house, and all their players except LZ are training together since a few weeks back in Arizona.
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On July 23 2011 07:39 GoStyle wrote:Show nested quote +
Clearly you don't care about facts. Puma has not gotten where he is because of TSL. Most of his development was done at Estro in brood war, and he was already good before joining. He is a good player, regardless of where he played.
The only thing sc1 and sc2 have in common is the word starcraft,,, its a totally different game. I heard someone say puma had been "supported" (living + practise etc) for 9~months by TSL, If thats correct then for them to lose their main player just like that is so harsh. EG shoulda went to TSL management first, its a dog ass move to go to the player, especially when he is there representing his team at a LAN event
Yeah you're right nobody should ever advance their careers, they owe too much to the people who first supported them (even though they weren't on a contract, making money, or able to keep hold of other staff members). And as for the new employers, how DARE they negotiate directly with the individual. The matter of his employment should have been taken up with his current team, his parents, his teachers, his pets and all other people who don't actually currently employ him. Imagine the sheer gall of the aptly named EVIL geniuses who saw the worlds greatest terran in front of them, a complete free agent, and offered them an actual career. What a fucking force of complete deviance.
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On July 23 2011 07:39 GoStyle wrote:
The only thing sc1 and sc2 have in common is the word starcraft,,, its a totally different game. I heard someone say puma had been "supported" (living + practise etc) for 9~months by TSL, If thats correct then for them to lose their main player just like that is so harsh. EG shoulda went to TSL management first, its a dog ass move to go to the player, especially when he is there representing his team at a LAN event
Thats probably the most ignorant thing ever said in this thread and there is a huge competition.
First, it is for a certain that, TSL brought some benefit to his abilities. But most of his skills come from the hardworking training, whether before Estro, or on Estro. The ability to understand RTS is a state of mind, not a state of game. Therefore making a point that Starcraft 2 is not Starcraft Broodwar is irrelevant. Any great player coming from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 will adapt to the new game extremely quickly and that is based upon the regiment and skills acquired before, not after.
You have several statements made before the this whole matter at hand, that stated: "Puma was already a great player on Estro."
Same goes for any other profession, this is the difference between a job and a profession.
On the Weapon of choice statements:
Also to the point who probably screwed up the most is EG for trusting a foreign entity to resolve this matter peacefully. So far Puma and Coach resolved the matter in a peaceful manner and according to EGAlex, Puma is devastated by the Coach's following behavior.
Also if EGAlex is honest, they did not approach Puma directly, they just gave him a contact information (Before offering anything), therefore its a joined decision to start the talks about leaving TSL. So you cant blame EG, without blaming Puma, which is just stupid.
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EG really are evils, just like those damn yankees in NY.
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Germany2859 Posts
On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:
Just listened to Weapon of choice.... EG are sly dogs to do what they did and they try patronising the korean guy as to how "international esports works" is pathetic.. maybe thats how US esports is run but not in EU.
So tell me, Sherlock. How exactly does EU differ? If an EU player is unsigned, he is a free agent. Period. If a player tells you to let him speak to his team first you will grant him that wish regardless of region.
On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:Puma has had A LOT of time/money invested in his development and its a piss take that when Koreans get a trip aboard their home teams now have to worry about sly teams like EG trying to poach their players then justify it.
Yeah, it's really a shame to be able to provide attractive conditions. How dare they offer it. A deal is certainly dependent on one party only, no? The person that takes the offer is nothing but a victim. And the team that does not provide attractive conditions is surely more honorable.
On July 23 2011 07:17 GoStyle wrote:Find it funny Alex talks about how sc2 cant be handled the same way sc1 was in korea because "it will effect the growth of the sport"... clearly he doesnt care about the growth of the sport and is only about the money.
Of course it's about the money, get real. It's the same reason fOu can continue to be and be in an even better situation than before. You think current KR SC2 can exist what- 1,2,3 years more in the same condition as it is right now? It is the hope for money. That there will be more. Would you go on the limb to say "no, we don't wan't that. we wan't the players keep playing on housing and food only"?
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I do beleive Milkis is biased due to his stance taken on WoC and his opinions given... but I don't think he is biased at all in his translations. Just because he argues a point in an opinion piece doesn't mean that his translations are biased.
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On July 23 2011 07:39 GoStyle wrote:Show nested quote +
Clearly you don't care about facts. Puma has not gotten where he is because of TSL. Most of his development was done at Estro in brood war, and he was already good before joining. He is a good player, regardless of where he played.
The only thing sc1 and sc2 have in common is the word starcraft,,, its a totally different game. I heard someone say puma had been "supported" (living + practise etc) for 9~months by TSL, If thats correct then for them to lose their main player just like that is so harsh. EG shoulda went to TSL management first, its a dog ass move to go to the player, especially when he is there representing his team at a LAN event
I think what He meant by learning from Estro is that he got his work ethic from there and game sense. Which when you bring it into sc2 Its quite similiar. But the point of "supported" thing is just wrong. Its like working on a damn crab boat for 12 hours not getting payed but wait you have a place to stay. I think that its fine he left to get a salary.
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Yeah you're right nobody should ever advance their careers, they owe too much to the people who first supported them (even though they weren't on a contract, making money, or able to keep hold of other staff members). And as for the new employers, how DARE they negotiate directly with the individual. The matter of his employment should have been taken up with his current team, his parents, his teachers, his pets and all other people who don't actually currently employ him. Imagine the sheer gall of the aptly named EVIL geniuses who saw the worlds greatest terran in front of them, a complete free agent, and offered them an actual career. What a fucking force of complete deviance.
soon ull burst into "USA USA USA!!!" looool. One thing is for sure, the korean teams will be warey of sending their players to foreign events now unless they are bound by contracts.
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On July 23 2011 07:56 Airship wrote:
Yeah you're right nobody should ever advance their careers, they owe too much to the people who first supported them (even though they weren't on a contract, making money, or able to keep hold of other staff members). And as for the new employers, how DARE they negotiate directly with the individual. The matter of his employment should have been taken up with his current team, his parents, his teachers, his pets and all other people who don't actually currently employ him. Imagine the sheer gall of the aptly named EVIL geniuses who saw the worlds greatest terran in front of them, a complete free agent, and offered them an actual career. What a fucking force of complete deviance.
Can you please share how old are you? Have you been ever employed in your life? Did you hear from anyone trustworthy, that he was drafted from another company by talking to the employers (Not the employee)? This was abolished in US shortly after a civil war. So if you can provide enough evidence, please contact your local law enforcement agency.
Edit: I now realize that the post was sarcastic and even if I was wrong replying to the man, i think i should leave the comment there.
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EPT
