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Well, it's Puma's decision, hope he'll be happy with it... :-(
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On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:58 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 08:47 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:42 azka wrote:
I was listening WOC, around 1:44:30 was an interesting moment where Alex Garfield (in a very polite way) converted Milkis into a journalist and then everything went crazy.
Basically it went from EG being BM by not contacting Momma Bear to "Korea's model has to change" to "Milkis is a irresponsible journalist".
Kinda sad. I dont know, whether you distort his words by mistake or on purpose. I watched it closely live and I am afraid the ladder is more probable. :'( EDIT: Mainly his point about people from community often not realizing how great their influence can be (And with such responsibility you become "journalist", whether you are paid or you realized that.). And as he clearly stated, he did not accuse him of nothing. I think no sensible person would say, that phrasing and perspective has no effect on people. Ok, then I can tell I'm not accusing him of making Milkis responsible of all this bad feedback, right? I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is. So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis.
Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way.
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Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis.
Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way.
True dat.
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On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:58 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 08:47 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:42 azka wrote:
I was listening WOC, around 1:44:30 was an interesting moment where Alex Garfield (in a very polite way) converted Milkis into a journalist and then everything went crazy.
Basically it went from EG being BM by not contacting Momma Bear to "Korea's model has to change" to "Milkis is a irresponsible journalist".
Kinda sad. I dont know, whether you distort his words by mistake or on purpose. I watched it closely live and I am afraid the ladder is more probable. :'( EDIT: Mainly his point about people from community often not realizing how great their influence can be (And with such responsibility you become "journalist", whether you are paid or you realized that.). And as he clearly stated, he did not accuse him of nothing. I think no sensible person would say, that phrasing and perspective has no effect on people. Ok, then I can tell I'm not accusing him of making Milkis responsible of all this bad feedback, right? I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is. So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way.
I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p
Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen.
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You have to remember that you can word posts in a way that can be bias a little bit especially when you don't have one sides story.
The first thing you saw was "PuMa leaves TSL for EG" and at the time PuMa really wasn't signed yet, so it should have looked more like "TSL releases PuMa expected to sign with EG"
I'm not saying its not true but when the news first broke the posts stated that EG approached PuMa. Yet at the time there still was no response from EG so they really didn't know FOR SURE, so it should have looked something more like "TSL claims EG approached PuMa at NASL"
Even though its just forums and its ok to have your opinion in whatever you post buuut I think news like this where its being translated there should be a no bias to it and let the people know that EG never responded yet so it was all TSL claims so that one side doesn't look horribly bad if the statements could not be fully true. Thats all I think
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the true questions is will the sc2 Korean association make it impossible for foreign team to sign Korean players?
and i really REALLY hope Puma doesnt back out of a big chance like this to make money and travel the world alot because this topic is getting some hate.
EG close the deal nab him before he starts having second thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On July 23 2011 10:36 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:58 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 08:47 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:
[quote]
I dont know, whether you distort his words by mistake or on purpose. I watched it closely live and I am afraid the ladder is more probable. :'(
EDIT: Mainly his point about people from community often not realizing how great their influence can be (And with such responsibility you become "journalist", whether you are paid or you realized that.). And as he clearly stated, he did not accuse him of nothing. I think no sensible person would say, that phrasing and perspective has no effect on people. Ok, then I can tell I'm not accusing him of making Milkis responsible of all this bad feedback, right? I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is. So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way. I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen.
It is fair in the context of EG blaming Milkis for not getting a statement from them. Milkis tried. EG refused (Sir Scoots had more important things to do). Their delayed response is their fault.
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What A Series Of Interesting Events lol...
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wow. After listening to weapon of choice, i really wish i could have been on that radio to make several counter points. The topics kept changing and lost its focus on the whole thing that people care about, which is the ethics. Garfield is a great spokesman for the company, but really, there were a lot of things that could have been pointed out that really shows EG was unethical.
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I think EG did nothing wrong and without teams like EG who are actually a business that has a business model, budget, etc. esports outside of Korea would still be just a dream.
Yes ethics are important, but if I was a team owner who wants his team to be successful as a team and as a business would also not contact the coach first. Why take the risk? The coach could have convinced puma not to join EG before EG even had a chance to pitch. I mean you would have to be pretty fucking dumb (from a business point of view) to do that.
Sure it's upsetting to the coach on a personal level. But this should serve as a wake up call. This is no longer a mom and pop shop. This is a global sport.
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Congratulations to Puma for not having to play his ass off for crumbs and a corner to sleep in a cramped Korean apartment . Champions deserve better than being one step above homeless/slavery.
GL in the future and congrats again on your raise! :D
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wow that's freaking awesome EG definitely a powerhouse team even more so now than they were before.
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On July 23 2011 11:04 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 10:36 Angelbelow wrote:On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 08:58 azka wrote:
[quote]
Ok, then I can tell I'm not accusing him of making Milkis responsible of all this bad feedback, right? I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is. So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way. I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen. It is fair in the context of EG blaming Milkis for not getting a statement from them. Milkis tried. EG refused (Sir Scoots had more important things to do). Their delayed response is their fault.
Sir Scoots didn't have anything to do with the Puma deal, he is not their spokesperson. AG runs the company and speaks for EG, Scoots manages the team. Its not Scoots place to make a comment without speaking to his boss first and sending a tweet isn't an appropriate way to ask for comment on a story.
I am in the camp of people who believe when you have a special tag on a site like TL, which as a staff writer for TL i hope to earn one day soon, you have a larger obligation to fact check before you post the story. Milkis "only" translated the article is not a defense in my eyes, he broke the story. If someone else had broken the story and Milkis then came in to give a proper translation, as he has been known to do, then thats different.
If a bomb goes off in Iraq killing US citizens and local news covers it, then NBC or BBC break the story to the western world they are doing the exact same thing Milkis did, they are breaking a story to a community and have an obligation to fact check.
Imagine if the BBC reported that a US plane bombed somewhere and killed US citizens by accident, because thats what the original story on the local Iraq news was and it turned out that it was actually terrorists...... the BBC would be hit by a shit storm for not fact checking, "we were only relaying the story" would not be a valid defense.
The "facts" in the original article were wrong, EG hadn't signed Puma at the time, not sure if they even have yet and while that might not have been a problem when it was only in the Korean community its a big deal here. Only one side of the story was told, the claims made were inaccurate and reported to us as true, I haven't seen anywhere an edit to the OP saying "sorry guys, this is inaccruate"
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A lot of SC II related signings seem to have this unhappy vibe about them lately. I really like Puma as a player and wish him luck in the future, but just like the Destiny/Complexity fiasco it seems like both EG and TSL could've handled this situation with a little bit more class.
Unfortunately, I think these situations are the inevitable result of the scene growing in popularity and stature. As more money starts to become involved more and more things like this will occur.
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On July 23 2011 12:46 emythrel wrote:
I haven't seen anywhere an edit to the OP saying "sorry guys, this is inaccruate"
It's at the top of the page?
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On July 23 2011 12:46 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:04 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On July 23 2011 10:36 Angelbelow wrote:On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:
[quote]
I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is.
So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way. I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen. It is fair in the context of EG blaming Milkis for not getting a statement from them. Milkis tried. EG refused (Sir Scoots had more important things to do). Their delayed response is their fault. Sir Scoots didn't have anything to do with the Puma deal, he is not their spokesperson. AG runs the company and speaks for EG, Scoots manages the team. Its not Scoots place to make a comment without speaking to his boss first and sending a tweet isn't an appropriate way to ask for comment on a story. I am in the camp of people who believe when you have a special tag on a site like TL, which as a staff writer for TL i hope to earn one day soon, you have a larger obligation to fact check before you post the story. Milkis "only" translated the article is not a defense in my eyes, he broke the story. If someone else had broken the story and Milkis then came in to give a proper translation, as he has been known to do, then thats different. If a bomb goes off in Iraq killing US citizens and local news covers it, then NBC or BBC break the story to the western world they are doing the exact same thing Milkis did, they are breaking a story to a community and have an obligation to fact check. Imagine if the BBC reported that a US plane bombed somewhere and killed US citizens by accident, because thats what the original story on the local Iraq news was and it turned out that it was actually terrorists...... the BBC would be hit by a shit storm for not fact checking, "we were only relaying the story" would not be a valid defense. The "facts" in the original article were wrong, EG hadn't signed Puma at the time, not sure if they even have yet and while that might not have been a problem when it was only in the Korean community its a big deal here. Only one side of the story was told, the claims made were inaccurate and reported to us as true, I haven't seen anywhere an edit to the OP saying "sorry guys, this is inaccruate"
Completely agree with you. Someone is willing to devote time and effort to being involved in the SC2 world, but not willing to devote any time to checking the facts.
Like it or not, all that misinformation has had large ramifications for lots of people. Mr. Lee may have cooled off after saying those things, and may have wished to present his stance in a different manner and even talk with EG privately. The people who earn a living working for EG got blindsided. And a 19 year old kid is even more distraught over a decision that was obviously difficult for him in the first place.
Take a look at the development of the Mad Cow Disease riots in Seoul a few years ago. Misinformation on a news channel and it spread like wildfire through message boards. Went all the way to affecting a trade agreement with the U.S., and many of the facts were wrong. Dangerous stuff.
I don't think Milkis owes an apology. I just hope he thinks long and hard about his true motivations, and the consequences of his actions in the future. Take some responsibility for what you invest your time in.
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I'm happy for Puma, this was a great opportunity for him and he took it.
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On July 23 2011 12:26 starcraft2rush wrote:
Congratulations to Puma for not having to play his ass off for crumbs and a corner to sleep in a cramped Korean apartment . Champions deserve better than being one step above homeless/slavery.
GL in the future and congrats again on your raise! :D
Too bad he'll never be a champion again, EG is known for taking champions and molding them into average player who performs like sockpuppets in shows that won't win them any games.
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On July 23 2011 13:22 Kentakky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 12:26 starcraft2rush wrote:
Congratulations to Puma for not having to play his ass off for crumbs and a corner to sleep in a cramped Korean apartment . Champions deserve better than being one step above homeless/slavery.
GL in the future and congrats again on your raise! :D Too bad he'll never be a champion again, EG is known for taking champions and molding them into average player who performs like sockpuppets in shows that won't win them any games.
Your hater is showing.
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On July 23 2011 09:50 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:44 IslandLife wrote:On July 23 2011 06:02 DeckOneBell wrote:On July 23 2011 05:56 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 23 2011 05:54 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 23 2011 05:48 nuMi22 wrote: Do you really believe relations between the Korean and international scene are going to improve because of this, or that Korean teams won't be even more wary of sending their players to international events (especially after the arguments that this is the "Western business model", and Korea better get used to it)?
The relations should never have been an issue because there is NO issue over how EG handled the situation with Puma. Yes the Koreans better get used to it, TSL is contracting their players now so they're already doing it. They wouldn't have done it if the foreign scene wasn't an influence. No, they wouldn't have put their players on contracts if the foreign scene wasn't an influence and honestly, at this point in the Korean SC2 scene, that would have been a good thing. Contracts in and of themselves don't guarantee players better lives. EG pretty much made things worse for players in the Korean scene by putting the teams on edge. Source for your basis on that thought? Signing contracts for long-term cooperation might make teams less likely to take chances on unknown players. If they're forced to keep the player a certain amount of time regardless of the player's results, such a situation may be considered too risky to take on. Yes, there were cases of poaching players previously in SC2, but it was rare enough that apparently, contracts weren't necessary to ensure player loyalty. Not to mention that the new state of affairs for TSL is a direct cause of the foreign SC2 scene. How do you think the Koreans feel about the situation when they hear a North American team is trying to poach their players? We want to integrate the foreign scene with the Korean scene, or at least I want to, and this is definitely not the right way to go about it. TSL is angry because they have no way to ask for a buyout on a kid without a contract. This faux cultural outrage is just an easy out. TSL would've loved to have an opportunity to make money off of this player transaction, and this is the only reason they are pretending EG wasn't culturally sensitive. Look, you need to reverse the tables. It is quite obvious that some of the Korean teams want to have their cake, and eat it, too. They don't want to contract most players, but they want to get money out of said players if they are successful. On top of that the team owners sit down and decide they don't want players fending for themselves on the market. Look, just because they make up some "code" about player transactions doesn't mean said code has any cultural basis. This doesn't make any sense because it is entirely possible to make a contract for nothing more than just room and board. They weren't avoiding a contract in order to take advantage of the kids or something.
Well if it is that easy, then why wasn't it done a long time ago? The more employees a company in Korea has, the more money they have to spend on pension, taxes, health care as mandated by law. It's a way to cut corners and save pennies. Now that they've seen a Korean kid willing to join a foreign team so quickly after his success, they see how they potentially lost out on money and sponsorships by not offering contracts.
I doubt Coach Lee is sitting in his apartment right now missing the sound of Puma's voice. He's lamenting the fact that his failing team didn't have the resources or the wherewithal to plan for something like this. He's also probably calculating how much money he can make working at the 돼지갈비 place down the street.
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EPT
