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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 258

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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Soap
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil1546 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 00:09:26
July 22 2011 00:08 GMT
#5141
A lot of this shitstorm stems from the idea that Puma is some kind of SC savant who was deceived by a big bad business while away from his caretakers.

I can't even imagine what was to be talked between EG's and TSL's managements. Like "uh... we want to hire a player of yours... can we be friends and have popsicles at sunset?"
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16713 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 00:12:55
July 22 2011 00:08 GMT
#5142
EG avoided a "contract buy out" but going to Puma first.
If EG approaches the team first, before contacting Puma... the first thing TSL does is sign Puma to a token contract in order to make a buy out possible.

Tampering happens in pro sports constantly.
During the Free Agent period of the NHL ... minutes after the free agent marketplace officially opens players get signed to 5 year 50 million dollars deal with a contract and agreement that is 200+ pages in length.

Rich teams get the best players because they have more money.

Sc2 is not a huge sweeping success in Korea and therefore TSL does not have the financial where with all to back Puma as much as EG can.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
July 22 2011 00:08 GMT
#5143
On July 22 2011 09:05 MrSexington wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 08:21 MrSexington wrote:
They're discussing this with DJwheat right now btw on Weapon of Choice:

http://www.onemoregame.tv/

Tune in.


Here's the cliff notes:

  • The news is fairly rushed: As of right now, Puma is NOT a member of Team EG.
  • I apologize for any disrespect towards Mr. Lee.
  • What we did was not only legally correct, but also morally and ethically correct.
  • One of the reasons Puma is NOT a member yet because we wanted to give him the chance to speak to his team first.
  • EG approached Puma first.
  • Thinks a lot of confusion is due to translation in words such as "approached."
  • "We're looking to support some Korean players, are you interested."
  • Puma isn't contracted with TSL.
  • The topic of his coach (Mr. Lee) came up multiple times. We didn't want to offend the SC community.
  • EG has a history of buyouts, each accompanied with mutual press releases with other teams.
  • We've approached at least 3 other Korean players/teams.
  • It was mutually agreed between the player and us that he would talk to his coach.
  • The conversation between Puma and coach Lee went really well and was distraught after hearing the reactions to the news last night.
  • We were never going to do this if it wasn't okay with the other team. (And it sounded like everything was good.)
  • Instead of leaving it up to Puma to talk to the team, EG should have contacted TSL directly.
  • Coach Lee should not have made a public statement in anger. (It sounds like he made the statement in anger.)
  • Both EG and coach Lee are responsible for the situation, causing a lot of distress for the player, and it's not 50/50.
  • SC2 in Korea is kind of struggling, despite what it may look like. And isn't this just an example of a player getting something outside Korea that he wasn't getting inside Korea?
  • "Contracting the player is fixing the wrong problem."
  • Korean teams are used to dealing with their players in a very self-contained way, and that's just not going to work in SC2 [because of how big SC2 is becoming in the foreign scene].
  • "I don't think what we did was underhanded at all."
  • If we're not getting to a point where an independent brand, like mine,... it's not a system that works globally.


*break time for Q&A to come*


Thank you very much! Wading through all the bias in peoples post is almost impossible.
Moderator
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2889 Posts
July 22 2011 00:08 GMT
#5144
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore


I would suggest that to you, actually.
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
July 22 2011 00:09 GMT
#5145
On July 22 2011 09:08 marvin. wrote:
So I just tuned in and I missed the earlier part of the show - Has Alex actually talked about how he approached PuMa rather than recruiting koreans for foreigner teams in general?


He handed out business cards w/ a translator @ NASL finals. In front of all of the players & VIPs. He talked to others as well.
xN.07)MaK
Profile Joined January 2006
Spain1159 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5146
Same happens in football:

Barcelona raises a kid from age of 6 to16 and suddenly Arsenal appears and promises him to be very important for the team, and at the end some of them do it.

Of course they are free to choose, but no one can blame TSL for being mad at the way they did it.
El micro es el último recurso que les queda a los que no producen lo suficiente
Barkziee
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom138 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5147
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore


He's trying to create a balanced discussion in his 2nd language. This is not a balanced debate because he is not the opposition, therefore your point is completely invalid. You are one of those who have fallen for the political banter.
PHILtheTANK
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1834 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5148
Yes it would have been nice for EG to get in contact with TSL's manager directly, but I don't see that they did anything wrong. They apprantely found it better to go through Puma and have him speak to the coach, and you would think that Mr. Lee would contact EG directly from that if he had problems/questions. I don't think that EG would have had a problem giving a minor buyout(even for an UNCONTRACTED player) given the fact that they have apprantely been planning an acquisition like this for over a year.
Jieun <3
Dubpace
Profile Joined August 2010
United States251 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5149
This is a battle of different cultures it seems like. I'm find myself heavily on the EG side of things probably because I was raised in America and have capitalistic values in my blood.

Furthermore, everyone that says Alex is just full of "fluff" has no idea what real world business interactions and conversations sound like. Even if Milkis did have a valid point no one in a business setting will ever listen to it because all they hear is "like" and "basically".

Basically EG did what seemed ethically within their bands in American culture/business ethics that they know and Korean culture was unhappy with that because apparently things are done differently in other parts of the world.
nekuodah
Profile Joined August 2010
England2409 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5150
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore


Get out, how is a guy who is just a translator ment to argue with the guy in charge of EG's operations, its not a fair fight and thats why this is a pointless debate.
Mvz
Profile Joined April 2003
206 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5151
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore

User was temp banned for this post.

You too.

Would be interesting if someone like Nazqul could join the conversation.
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5152
Heres the cliffnotes

EG hasn't done a TSL style training house and has always "planned" to for the last year
EG buys out a player at NASL (after fishing around for any good players, even SEN etc)
EG doesn't want to train up talent, and instead just bought TSL's work
Now every korean will have a strict contract before travelling outside Korea
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
Yew
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States940 Posts
July 22 2011 00:10 GMT
#5153
Milkis can't speak for the TSL coach or teammates, which is bad because we don't get to hear their side of the story.
GoodRamen
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States713 Posts
July 22 2011 00:11 GMT
#5154
On July 22 2011 08:58 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:
On July 22 2011 08:16 getSome[703] wrote:
On July 22 2011 08:14 namedplayer wrote:
new interview from TSL coach posted on PlayXP

http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3211586


Any chance of a translation? Googletranslate blows


i'll try though i'm at work (has to be done discretely :X)

damn, thats a long interview lol...


i'm sure a well done translation will be done in the near future but i'm kinda bored at work XD

i'll be editing this as more gets done but heres a few lines for now.

+ Show Spoiler +
NASL에서 우승하고 온 이호준을 방출한다는 소식을 접했다. 북미 e스포츠 팀인 EG(Evil Geniuses)에 입단한다고 들었는데 어떻게 된 일인가.
Rurmor started Puma might be leaving after winning NASL, joining EG. What happened?
- 호준이가 귀국하고 왔는데 3일 동안 한숨을 쉬더라. 아니, 우승을 하고 온 애가 왜 한숨을 쉬고 있는지 신경 쓰였다. 그리고 GSTL 경기를 가졌고 팀이 승리를 했다. 그런대 또 한숨을 쉬고 있더라. 1년 가량을 데리고 있으면서 그런 모습을 본적이 없었다. 분명히 이상함을 느끼고 물어 봤는데 답을 하지 않았다. 몇 번을 물어도 마찬가지였다. GSTL 경기가 끝나고 다음 날 정도였던 것 같다. 힘들게 얘기를 하더라. 고민하고 있는 중이라고 말이다. 얘기를 들어보니 어느 정도 가기로 결심한 것을 직각했다.
After Puma returned, he sighed for 3 days. It bothered me why he looked so depressed after winning a tournament. Never seen him like this for the year we've been a team. Afterwards, we won the GSTL game. Something was weird so I asked what was going on but he did not answer. Even after many tries, he did not answer. Day after GSTL, he spoke what was in his mind with difficulties. He was having a hard time deciding something, after listening for a bit, i realized he plans to leave.

▼ 굉장히 착잡했을 것 같다.
Must have been hard.
- 당연하다. 원기와 기수가 팀에서 나갈 때 남은 선수들끼리 잘 해보자며 똘똘 뭉쳤었다. 그리고 크고 작은 해외 대회 성적도 괜찮았다. 그런데 그런 얘길 들으니 머릿속이 까매지더라.
Of course. After trickster and fd left, the remaining members came together to work harder. After that, we got results in small and big foreign tournaments. hearing puma's words disturbed me.

▼ 붙잡기도 했을 것 같은데 어떤 대화들이 오갔나.
You must have tried to keep him, what were the conversations?
- 이렇게 가는 건 아니다. 감독인 나를 통한 이적도 아니고 트레이드도 아닌 이 상황은 정말 아니다고 말했다. 싫은 소리도 많이 나오고 구설수에도 오를 수 있다고도 했지만 호준이는 다 이겨낼 수 있다고 하더라. 그리고 미안해 했고 EG에 대해서도 많이 안다고 했다. 언제가 되든 안볼 것도 아니기 때문에 그래도 좋게 나갔다. 팀원들도 배웅해 주고 말이다.
"Not like this." No one in TSL was contacted, i felt this shouldn't be how it is. There will be hateful words and lots of criticism but Puma insisted we'll get through it. Puma feels sorry and Puma knows a lot about EG. It isn't over, we'll still see each other, he departed with good relationship. his teammates supported him too.

▼ 최근 ‘리빌딩’을 선언한 후라 팀 내부 분위기도 영향이 있었을 것 같다.
Looks like this news will influence Hoora(?) team thats going through "rebuilding"
- 처음 팀에 들어올 땐 그런 내색도 없었고, 뭐라도 할 것처럼 왔던 선수가 내면을 숨겼던 거니 어찌할 수 없는 상황이었다. 상호와 규종이가 많이 걱정했다. 본인들도 그런 제안이 왔었던 적이 있어 더 그런 것 같더라.
He didn't have such intentions when he first joined the team, but if any, its been kept a secret so there's nothing that i could have done. Sangho and Gyujong(?) worried a lot because they have recieved offers from other teams too.

▼ 팀의 다른 선수들도 직접적인 제안이 오간 것 인가.
Have other members been approached too?
- 그렇다. 이번 일을 통해 알게 됐다. 상호나 규종이는 그런 제안이 왔을 때 바로 거절을 했고, 같이 시작한 나와 팀을 존중했기 때문에 그런 결정을 했다고 하더라. 그리고 거절한 내용을 굳이 밝히고 싶지 않다고 했다. 내가 신경 쓰이고 걱정할 것을 우려한 것 같다.
Yes. Thats how i found out. Sangho and Gyujong rejected offers right away because they valued TSL as its first members a long with me(coach lee). They didn't want to say much details regarding the offer and why they rejected because they felt it would just distract me.

▼ 왜 이런 일이 발생했다고 생각하나.
Why do you think something like this happened?
- 규종이 경우엔 해외 팬이 많다. 2~3천 정도 되는 걸로 아는 트위터의 팔로워가 거의 해외 팬들이다. 물론 상호도 마찬가지다. 우승자가 출신이 아닌 것에 비해 인기가 많은 편이라고 생각한다. 호준이 경우엔 NASL 우승 때문에 그런 제안들이 온 것 같다. 하지만, 짧은 시간에 그런 결정을 했다는 게 아쉬울 뿐이다. 사실, 내 입장에선 고민한다고 해도 섭섭한 감정이 없잖아 있다.
As for Gyujong, he has many fans. 2 to 3 thousand from twitter and most are foreigners. Same with sangho. I think, for not having won any major tournaments, their fan base is very good. Puma winning the NASL created this situation. I'm only dissapointed that the decision was made in such a short time. From what i could tell, though he felt worried, he didn't seem upset.

▼ 그럼 왜 그런 결정을 했을거라 생각하나.
- 아무래도 환경 문제가 큰 것 같다. 스타크래프트2 선수들이 선수로서 지내는 현재의 상황 말이다. 호준이가 코드S였다면 고민하지 않았을 것 같다. 선수 입장에선 코드S 진입도 힘들고 우승도 더더욱 힘든 상황이라 문이 좁다. GSL만을 보고 꿈꾸고 왔는데 해외를 경험 해보고 오니, 지금까지 해 온 것이 큰 비중을 차지하지 않았다라는 생각을 한 것 같다. 해외의 임팩트를 경험했기 때문에 더욱 달콤하지 않았을까 생각한다.

▼ 현재 국내 스타크래프트2 대회에 대한 불만도 있는 것 같다.
- 없다면 거짓말이다. GSL의 진입 장벽은 생각보다 높다. 그리고 국내에 다른 리그가 없는 것도 어느 정도 문제점이 된다고 본다.

▼ 그럼 왜 사전에 계약서를 작성하지 않았나.
- 처음에는 계약서를 작성하려고 했다. 팀원들도 동의 했었다. 하지만, 선수들이 너무 진실된 열정과 가능성이 보여 당분간은 쓸 필요 없겠다란 생각을 했다. 절대 믿었다. 지금은 조금 후회 된다.

▼ 이상하게도 TSL에서 많은 선수들이 나간 것으로 보인다. 아무래도 기존 팀원의 수가 많지 않아 그래 보이겠지만, 그에 따른 코멘트가 없었다. 지금 이 자리를 통해 밝혀 볼 수 있겠나.
- 서용이는 아버님께서 뉴욕에 계셨고, 원래부터 꿈이 해외 진출이었다. 팀을 나간 후 지금의 프나틱과 교섭한 것이라 지금의 호준이와는 상황이 달랐다. 팀을 나간 이유는 리빌딩 당시 여러 문제가 있었는데 그것이 계기가 됐다.


▲ 실제로 당시 TSL 소속된 선수들이 정규시즌 중 가장 높은 성적을 낸 것은 코드S 8강에 불과하다.

▼ 리빌딩 당시 또 다른 문제들이 있었던 것인가.
- TSL은 올해 초부터 최근까지 이렇다 할 성적을 내지 못했다. 그러면서 후원 규모도 작아졌고, 업체의 수도 줄게 됐다. 자율적인 환경을 조건으로 시작했지만 성적이 오랫동안 나오지 않았다. 6개월 정도? 코드S는 많았지만, 순위 권에 들지 못했다. 그래서 분위기 쇄신을 위한 리빌딩을 생각하게 됐다. 그 과정에서 기수와 원기는 자율적인 방안을 원했지만, 다른 선수들은 체계적인 쪽을 바랬다. 성적 부진으로 인해 후원 금액이 깎이게 됐고, 당연히 급여가 낮아지고 재 날짜에 지급이 힘들어져 약속한 부분을 지켜 주지 못했다. 결국 연봉제가 가장 컸고, 분위기 쇄신에 따라와 주지 못해 나가게 된 거다. 팀의 막내였던 서용이는 형들과 코드가 맞지 않았고, 당시 해외를 나가고 싶었던 마음이 공존했었다. 그래서 그 결정에 대해 존중해 줬다. 아마 리빌딩이 좀 더 빨랐다면 서용이는 남았을지도 모른다.

▼ 몇 가지 루머들이 있다. 먼저 연봉제 발표 후 제대로 지급되지 않았다는 설이 있는데 어떻게 생각하나.
- 금액을 밝히기 곤란하지만, 원기-기수-규종이는 월급이 나갔다. 금액을 밝히기 어려운 것은 이게 다른 팀 선수들에게 영향이 미칠 것을 염려하기 때문이다. 그 외 다른 팀원들은 용돈 형식으로 나갔다. 리빌딩 후 규종이와 상호는 자신들이 받은 돈을 되려 반납하면서 팀 운영에 써 달라고 했다. 그것이 너무 고마워 먹는 것에 대해선 아끼지 않는다. 지금에서야 하는 생각이지만 연봉제 시기가 꽤 빨랐다고 본다. 한국에서의 스타크래프트2 흥행 부진이 가장 컸다. 경제 상황도 좋지 못해 후원사도 수익이 나지 않는 상황이었고 메인 스폰서조차 사라질 위기였다.

▼ 또 한가지 루머는 팀에 신경을 쓰지 않았다라는 말이다. 개업한 PC방에만 신경 쓴다는 소문도 돌았다.
- 말도 안 된다. PC방을 아예 가지 않는다. PC방 오픈 당시에만 한 달 정도 신경을 썼고 후원사 작업도 함께 병행했었다. 그리고 팀 선수들에게 모두 동의를 얻었던 상황이었다. 억울한 건 후원사 작업도 다 가져온 상황이었다. 내가 팀 관리, PC방, 후원 작업 3개를 다 하기엔 벅찼다. 지금 PC방은 가족들도 배제하고 따로 인원을 두고 운영하고 있으며 난 어플리케이션으로 매상만 확인한다. PC방도 포기하고 팀에 신경 쓰고 있는데 그런 루머가 돌아 아쉽다.

▼ 똑 같은 일에 대해 대비해야 할 것 같다.
- 이번엔 계약을 할 것이다. 함께 열심히 하자는 약속이다. 이번 일을 계기로 선수들도 합의했고 먼저 작성하자고 하더라. 혹시 몰라 더 나갈 사람 있냐고 물어 봤는데 없었다.

▼ 계약의 내용이 어떻게 될 것 같나.
- 우선, 메인 선수 6명을 중심으로 계약을 하게 될 것 같다. 그리고 새로 선발된 연습생들도 계약서를 작성할 계획이다. 선수들에게 먹여주고, 재워주고 연습할 환경을 만들어 주는 것도 지원이라고 생각한다. 기간은 1년 정도 생각하고 있지만, 제공되는 내용과 선수들이 원하는 방향으로 계약을 할 것이다.

▼ 한국 시장에서 후원 작업하는 것이 쉽지 않은 것으로 알고 있다.
- 분명 처음 시작할 때와는 다르다. 많이 힘들어 진 게 사실이다. 성적 부진도 있으니 명함도 못 내밀었다. 여기에 경기 악화로 규모도 줄어들고, 새로 생기진 않는 상황이다. 현재 후원사에게 감사한다. 이런 상황인데도 후원을 계속 이어 주고 있고, 우리 TSL의 도전 정신을 인정해 주셨다. 열정이 멋있고, 기대한다는 연락도 왔었다.

▼ 이번 일을 계기로 협의회나 다른 팀에게 바라는 것은 없는가.
- 다른 팀들이 피해가 없었으면 좋겠다. 더불어 선수들도 깨달았으면 좋겠다. 쉽진 않겠지만, 특정 팀이 선수를 영입하는 과정에서 선수나 팀의 권익 보호를 위한 표준 계약서가 필요하다는 입장이다.

▼ 방출이란 표기에 대해 일반 클랜과 다른 것이 팀이 사용할 말은 아니다란 얘기에 대해 어떻게 생각하나.
- 방출이란 단어가 나쁜 뜻이 아니다. 이적이 아닌 상황에서 방출말고 더 이상의 좋은 단어가 어디 있나. 단어 때문에 오해하시는 분들이 많지만, 선수의 결정은 존중해 줬다. 그리고 돈에 대해선 프로라 아니라 할 수도 있겠지만, 스타1과 스타2를 비교했을 때 기본적으로 제공되는 것은 다를 게 없다. 사업장 명도 스타크래프트2 프로 게임단으로 등록되어 있다.

▼ 감독의 능력 부족이란 말도 있다.
- 일부분 통감한다. 하지만, 이건 내 능력 밖의 일이라 생각한다. 우선 경기가 좋지 않고, 유저 층이 생각보다 얇다. 저변이 없다는 것이 가장 크다. 보는 사람은 어떨지 모르겠지만, 즐기는 사람은 많이 없는 편이다. 이 부분이 해소되어야 스타크래프트2의 e스포츠 시장이 발전할 수 있다고 본다.

▼ 해소를 하려면 어떤 방법이 있겠나.
- 우리는 자체적으로 스타크래프트2 흥행을 위해 노력하고 있다. 다나와 사이트와 미디어잇에 초보자를 위한 동영상 강의를 하고 있다. 1편은 약 2만명 정도가 봤다. 흥행이 조금이라도 잘되고, 함께 팀을 알릴 수 있다는 판단에 강좌를 택한 것이다. 고화질 영상을 제공하기 위해 HD장비까지 구매 해 뒀다.

▼ 마지막으로 할 말이 있나.
- 먼저 기수와 원기에게는 미안한 마음이 크다. 상황이 어찌 되었던 약속했던 것을 못 지켜 줬기 때문이다. 서로 뜻이 맞진 않았지만, 개인적으론 현재 있는 곳에서도 잘하고 잘 됐으면 좋겠다. 그리고 우리 TSL도 또 다른 준비를 하고 있다. 날 믿어주는 선수들에게 항상 고맙고, 팬들의 응원에 힘입어 더 나은 TSL이 되도록 노력하겠다. 해외 팬들에게도 항상 감사하다. 늘 지켜 봐주시고 지속적인 응원 부탁 드린다.


thanks i cant wait to read the rest
#1 Fantasy Fan!!!!
2plusthree
Profile Joined February 2011
Russian Federation43 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 00:11:58
July 22 2011 00:11 GMT
#5155
n/m
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 22 2011 00:12 GMT
#5156
On July 22 2011 09:10 lol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore

User was temp banned for this post.

You too.

Would be interesting if someone like Nazqul could join the conversation.


Nazgul doesn't seem to be online, he is probably sleeping.
Lafie
Profile Joined August 2005
Finland36 Posts
July 22 2011 00:12 GMT
#5157
Sounds so much like the teams owns the player's life, and the player has almost no say, nor do the team trust the players. Starts to seem like a bad marriage :D.
Corrosive
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3741 Posts
July 22 2011 00:12 GMT
#5158
On July 22 2011 09:10 dacthehork wrote:
Heres the cliffnotes

EG hasn't done a TSL style training house and has always "planned" to for the last year
EG buys out a player at NASL (after fishing around for any good players, even SEN etc)
EG doesn't want to train up talent, and instead just bought TSL's work
Now every korean will have a strict contract before travelling outside Korea



Are these cliffnotes?

I could have sworn they were just anti EG notes.
Maruprime.
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
July 22 2011 00:12 GMT
#5159
Holy shit this Alex guy is ignorant as fuck. Seems like he has absolutely no clue
where the problem lies.

Sc2, or E-Sports at all, isn't on a level where every player has an agent or anything like this, or
is educated enough in trading manners. What the hell does he think, these players in korea
train to be the best and fame. Then money comes. But if suddenly a foreigner team
approaches player directly with salaries etc, of course everything is going to be turned
upside down.
wat
DigitalisDestructi
Profile Joined November 2010
United States488 Posts
July 22 2011 00:12 GMT
#5160
On July 22 2011 09:08 Arijevska wrote:
Milkis pwned so hard :D I would suggest not writing on TL anymore

Any particular reason why you're so happy about this? He contributed (and contributing) so much for the foreign community, and this is what you have to say about him?
Deus Ex is awesome -- soundcloud.com/user9260191 -- soundclick.com/ekarinsm -- purevolume.com/ekarinsm
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