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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
basic ethics and respect... are you kidding me? They didnt go behind anybodies back. It would be going behind Puma's back if they talked to tsl before talking to him. TSL isnt owed a thing obviously and are powerless to control where their players leave to, especially because they apparently didnt have any contract setup. This was Puma's best chance to make the most out of where his career has gone to this point. Coming off a major tournament victory, it is unlikly he will see a similar fofer in the future unless he keeps up his game. Awesome move for both parties!
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On July 22 2011 01:23 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:21 Luppy1 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. There's this freedom of everything in the west. Of course, self interest is important. But, from where I come from, you don't bite the hand that fed you. Personal gain is not > everything else. I wouldn't leave behind an aging relative who raised me just because I can move to the US(for eg.) and earn 2 times of what I can earn now unless if I have no values. Shouldn't the "aging relative" be happy that you have the talent and skill to earn so much money doing something you love?
I'm not sure about TSL's current roster or whether they even have enough star players to have a good standing among all the terrific teams in Korea. Personal gain is not > everything else.
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OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
@ @ZimiRabid Yeah, nothing of that is clear. But it's still true TSL had a salary for every player o_o
8 hours ago
That should clear up the misunderstanding about him not having a salary at TSL
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
No, YOU don't understand.
I think if you look up the word "steal" you'll find that no definition says "paying more money than somebody else to aquire one of their goods". TSL isn't STEALING anything and so I don't see how ethics factors into this buisness transaction. It's not stealing, it's not insider trading, it's not fraud, it's just a team, seeing a free agent, and thinking "wow, he'd be good on my team".
A coach doesn't own the rights to a player unless they've made him sign a contract. Without signing a contract means EG DOES HAVE THE RIGHT. That's exactly what that means.
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On July 22 2011 01:32 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 fush wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm you mean the korean "moral value" that you belong to your manager and without their consent you can't leave elsewhere when given a better opportunity? wait what? Not at all. Is it so wrong to expect EG to show respect to PuMa's coach?
"respect"
they showed respect when they gave puma the offer and allowing him to talk with his team/coach/family before making a decision. what kind of respect are you talking about here? send a rep over to korea and kowtow before making an offer?
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On July 22 2011 01:33 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
why stop at puma?
im sure most other top korean players aren't contracted as well.
just give mvp, losira and friends a ring.
Why not if it generates revenue for the organization at play? If MVP, Losira, and friends wanted to stay at their respective organizations, they would. 'nuff said. Get out of corporate moral utopia/
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On July 22 2011 01:33 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
why stop at puma?
im sure most other top korean players aren't contracted as well.
just give mvp, losira and friends a ring.
Are you sure. I feel confident in saying that they are contracted, otherwise they would be snapped up.
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On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect. If there was no contract, that hardly makes him THEIR player.
Who said Puma had no contract with TSL
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On July 22 2011 01:31 JayJay_90 wrote:
I don't really get all the EG-hate. Maybe it's because i was never interested in brood war and so i don't know about the conditions and rules about players switching their team there. But then again, this isn't brood war and there is no kespa or a similar organisation.
I can understand, that the TSL coach is upset, since he probably lost his strongest player and i guess EG should've at least contacted him. I think it's perfectly fine though, that they contacted Puma first, because if wasn't willing to join their team, contacting the coach wouldn,'t make any sense in the first place. This is not football (or any other big sport i guess) where every player has his own agent, that takes care of such offers.
We don't know for sure, how this all went down, because we've online got the TSL coach's statement, that is obviously biased. If it did go like this: EG asks Puma if he's interested in joining EG -> Puma says yes and tells his coach at TSL about his wish to join EG before EG has contacted TSL -> Puma is released from his contract before any proceedings can take place -> Puma, now teamless, joins EG; then i guess there's no reason to flip out about it.
Again, hating on EG without having more information about this seems out of place for me.
That is way to sensible an opinion for an internet discussion.
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On July 22 2011 01:29 natey-nate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:26 murtas wrote:On July 22 2011 01:21 natey-nate wrote:On July 22 2011 01:19 murtas wrote:
Well i did not read the 170 page that already cover this, but If i'm understanding right, Puma hadn't a contract with TSL, which if it is true, is weird.
But otherwise he couldn't have signed a second contract because that would be illegal, if he was already contracted.
Which leads to the point, why wasn't he contracted with TSL and if that was because he was an "new" upcoming player.
Thats TSL fault for not binding their players sooner. Just like any other sports, when there is no contract everyone is free to go.
Dunno where all this morality thing is coming from. From TSL's tweet about "releasing" puma, it seems like he WAS contracted with TSL. Puma himself requested to be released before it expired so he could join EG. TSL conceded. If he was contracted and they released it, it is their fault too, if they weren't happy about EG handling of the process, then just don't release the player if EG wants him, they need to pay what TSL desired to transfer the player just like every other sport. Specially when this player is their ACE and letting him go for 0? Super weird in a financial perspective. This is true and im sure TSL couldn't offer a competitive deal to EG's, but when your player basically tells you he wants out it puts you in a difficult position because you want to keep him, but obviously he will be unhappy if you don't let him out. i.e. he might intentionally underperform and make things hell for you until you abide by his request. This is why in other pro sports, teams are not allowed to make offers to currently contracted players on other teams even though they can offer more money.
Pretty much this.
recently, there was a semi - big uproar in England because someone speculated that a player was intentionally underperforming to get traded back to FC Barcelona from Arsenal. Is it common for this to happen, not really, but the danger of a top player potentially losing games is a tough thing to deal with. TSL's coach did what was best for the team by letting Puma go, but that doesn't mean he liked it.
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On July 22 2011 01:34 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:31 seoul_kiM wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm /utopia No contract so who does give a shit in a business world. There's two aspects to esports, business and playing. The businessmen do the business and the players do the playing. No contract = up for grabs. /back2utopia Your understanding of business is clearly shocking.
There's a reason that there was a governing ESPORTS authority in BW. It was a shitfest, but without it these things happen, and honestly I don't see how people can upset at EG and PuMa making a mutually beneficial decision. TSL's falling apart and PuMa's already been on one ship that sank.
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On July 22 2011 01:34 archangel2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:30 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc. Oh. So slavery was ethical when it was legal but then because unethical when it was illegal? Are you saying that what is ethical and unethical changes over time? It has to since laws change all the time. No, legality in no way implies morality. It's extremely obvious. No, morals and ethics change over time and place. And laws change with them.
lol. Ok, so rape is only wrong today, but if the law changes tomorrow, then tomorrow rape is not bad?
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I like the move on the face of it if Puma wasn't contracted to TSL, or at least had some out-clause with them. What's weird is that EG still hasn't made a formal announcement about their pick-up. I wonder how long it will take them to do so when some of the community already knows. Only then will we have a more complete picture of the entire situation.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I really hope that this incident forces the korean teams to at least look at having binding contracts drawn up with proper clauses on premature termination. I have a feeling that more and more teams might start losing their investments without any gain.
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On July 22 2011 01:35 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect. No, YOU don't understand. I think if you look up the word "steal" you'll find that no definition says "paying more money than somebody else to aquire one of their goods". TSL isn't STEALING anything and so I don't see how ethics factors into this buisness transaction. It's not stealing, it's not insider trading, it's not fraud, it's just a team, seeing a free agent, and thinking "wow, he'd be good on my team". A coach doesn't own the rights to a player unless they've made him sign a contract. Without signing a contract means EG DOES HAVE THE RIGHT. That's exactly what that means.
They have the legal right sure, but it doesn't stop it being disrespectful and wrong.
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On July 22 2011 01:23 kethers wrote:
People who are not raised with Asian customs and cultures do not understand the concept of filial piety; it is respect, gratitude, and deference to the people who helped raise you. Americans do not understand this idea so much.
I can only say I can understand from the Korean's POV how this action would be seen as a dishonorable slap in the face to them. I have no comments on the action's of EG itself though...
I'm fully aware and understand the idea of respecting everyone who's helped you in life. I still don't see a huge problem with this whole situation, i give the most credit to TSL for releasing him (if he was under contract) before his contract was up. True class
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On July 22 2011 01:36 jiveturkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:34 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:30 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc. Oh. So slavery was ethical when it was legal but then because unethical when it was illegal? Are you saying that what is ethical and unethical changes over time? It has to since laws change all the time. No, legality in no way implies morality. It's extremely obvious. No, morals and ethics change over time and place. And laws change with them. lol. Ok, so rape is only wrong today, but if the law changes tomorrow, then tomorrow rape is not bad?
You're still not getting the point. Ethics don't depend on laws (and I never argued that they did). It's the other way around. Obviously it's not applicable universally, but it is in the vast majority of cases. I don't understand why you're making the argument you're making, it's not even relevant.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. There's this freedom of everything in the west. Of course, self interest is important. But, from where I come from, you don't bite the hand that fed you. Personal gain is not > everything else. I wouldn't leave behind an aging relative who raised me just because I can move to the US(for eg.) and earn 2 times of what I can earn now unless if I have no values.
Your argument is irrelevant here. TSL didn't raise Puma, he was a great player before he joined them, maybe he a got a bit better from the training and help they gave him but it's not the same as an aging relative on their deathbed who you've just left for more money. They didn't "raise" him and he is not their 'property'. He made a decision to go to EG, asked to be released and TSL did. The Korean teams need to look after their players more or pay them more money or do something and stop being so precious about Koreans playing for foreign teams.
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Although the polls might say more people agree with what has been done, the people who did not agree were fans that EG lost.
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Just as i had suspected this thread has surpassed Nada's Body ._.
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EPT
