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On July 22 2011 01:28 Soap wrote:
Wouldn't be disrespectful to the player if you discuss his future with the manager who has no rights over him? Think about that.
No... You talk to the player first, and then you make sure to talk to management, too. I have no problem with them talking to the player to see if there is an interest - that's always the first step. But there is no excuse not to contact TSL staff at all - not the coach, not the manager - nothing?
I know how the business works to a degree - and that's now how you do business - E-sports is different I'm sure, but this is fishy.
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this is sad i feel abd for tsl .. what is wrong with you people
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On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. Without TSL, he wouldn't have a practice house Without TSL, he wouldn't have a salary Without TSL he wouldn't have gotten to show how good he is in the team league. Without TSL, he wouldn't have convenient practice partners to play with. (oh please don't list that koreans practice with ppl from other teams, they were all people who have been eliminated from the gsl, if they were still in the gsl they would have been too busy to practice from someone from another team) Without a team, he could have not entered the NASL open tournament Without TSL, he would have never gotten a plane ticket Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. So puma can just leave cause he is a sell out with lack of respect? And you people can't see anything wrong with that?
Why offer an opinion that shows that you have no idea what and who you are talking about?
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On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. Without TSL, he wouldn't have a practice house Without TSL, he wouldn't have a salary Without TSL he wouldn't have gotten to show how good he is in the team league. Without TSL, he wouldn't have convenient practice partners to play with. (oh please don't list that koreans practice with ppl from other teams, they were all people who have been eliminated from the gsl, if they were still in the gsl they would have been too busy to practice from someone from another team) Without a team, he could have not entered the NASL open tournament Without TSL, he would have never gotten a plane ticket Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. So puma can just leave cause he is a sell out with lack of respect? And you people can't see anything wrong with that?
This is really stupid. You could say the exact same things about any prior employer.
Without a previous employer, you wouldn't have gained all the training and experience they gave you.
Without a previous employer, you wouldn't have been able to get your name out there with new found skills.
Without a previous employer, your professional network would be a fraction of what it is.
It's the same thing. If someone wants to get to the top in any field (including sports), they have to leave those that helped them. It's the only way possible to get to the top.
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On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:
So puma can just leave cause he is a sell out with lack of respect?
And you people can't see anything wrong with that?
why do you say he has a lack of respect??
Is everyone in life who gets a new job or a promotion in your eyes a sell out??
I think a lot of people need to understand that in the real world you always put yourself first and no matter what great moral ideal you all hold he took the paycheck because its good for him and he should not be judged for that
there is nothing wrong with going for the money as its the goal of almost every single adult in the entire world
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On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. With EG, he has a practice house With EG, he has a salary With EG, he will show how good he is in the team league. With EG, he has convenient practice partners to play with. With EG, he can enter ANY tournament. With EG, plane ticket? lolez With EG, Puma is a sombody. I see nothing wrong about acquiring a player.
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On July 22 2011 01:41 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. Without TSL, he wouldn't have a practice house Without TSL, he wouldn't have a salary Without TSL he wouldn't have gotten to show how good he is in the team league. Without TSL, he wouldn't have convenient practice partners to play with. (oh please don't list that koreans practice with ppl from other teams, they were all people who have been eliminated from the gsl, if they were still in the gsl they would have been too busy to practice from someone from another team) Without a team, he could have not entered the NASL open tournament Without TSL, he would have never gotten a plane ticket Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. So puma can just leave cause he is a sell out with lack of respect? And you people can't see anything wrong with that? All of that aside, EG should have talked to coach lee first. All the people who disagree with what EG has done are to me lost support for EG.
this makes absolutely no sense. do you follow any sports? do you understand business?
and all this "respect" ... lol. respect is shown when the player is treated like an ADULT. not as property going through the manager first. respect was shown by EG when they made the offer to puma and ALLOWED him to talk to his team/manager, and not forcing him to decide then and there.
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I wonder if other Korean teams will think twice about sending players to foreign tournaments in fear of this kind of poaching.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 22 2011 01:39 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:
Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. Shows how much you know.
Ok, that guy was a little over the top but there's no denying that Puma owes a hell of a lot to TSL. They housed, fed and gave him access to practice/practice partners for many months. It must feel terrible knowing you're getting nothing back for all that effort.
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On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. Without TSL, he wouldn't have a practice house Without TSL, he wouldn't have a salary Without TSL he wouldn't have gotten to show how good he is in the team league. Without TSL, he wouldn't have convenient practice partners to play with. (oh please don't list that koreans practice with ppl from other teams, they were all people who have been eliminated from the gsl, if they were still in the gsl they would have been too busy to practice from someone from another team) Without a team, he could have not entered the NASL open tournament Without TSL, he would have never gotten a plane ticket Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. So puma can just leave cause he is a sell out with lack of respect? And you people can't see anything wrong with that?
That's right! I'm a proud basement dweller and look where I'd be if I ever left my parent's house!
Without my parent's house I'd be a bum on the street! Well look at me NOW world! Gloriously typing away in this basement. Without my parent's house I'd be a fucking nobody!
...
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I am not saying puma did anything wrong here, I am only saying that coach lee should have been the first one to get the offer.
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I like how most people think EG's move is perfectly fine and good for them, while half of thepeople hate what they did, and the reason they did it is for marketing.
If your move make half of the people hate ur brand image, that's not a good move, that's a retarded move.
For a team who's sole corporate purpose is marketing, the last thing they would want to is to have negative effects, if half or even 30% thinks what they did is bad, it defeats thewhole purpose of getting more awareness because a big part of attention u get will be hurting your marketing image.
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On July 22 2011 01:43 GoldenGun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here. With EG, he has a practice house With EG, he has a salary With EG, he will show how good he is in the team league. With EG, he has convenient practice partners to play with. With EG, he can enter ANY tournament. With EG, plane ticket? lolez With EG, Puma is a sombody. I see nothing wrong about acquiring a player.
I think you misread my post, that was my point exactly, everyone here is saying that this was awful, when all it is, is puma moving up in the world.
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On July 22 2011 01:43 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:39 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:39 doihy wrote:
Without TSL, Puma would be a fucking nobody. Shows how much you know. Ok, that guy was a little over the top but there's no denying that Puma owes a hell of a lot to TSL. They housed, fed and gave him access to practice/practice partners for many months. It must feel terrible knowing you're getting nothing back for all that effort.
I don't disagree, but Puma gave a lot back. I don't think you can look at the player-team relation in a "You provide X, this means I have to do Y to get even" fashion. If Puma thinks he can grow more as a player in EG or he just prefers the idea of being with EG, why not?
What puzzles me is that the TSL management let this happen in the first place.
And to be fair, players more or less give their lives to their team.
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On July 22 2011 01:05 Wpirit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:59 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 00:21 f0ol wrote:China, but relevant. Worth the read in my opinion. 7-deadly-perceptions-about-doing-business-with-chinaPerception #1: Assuming Chinese Do Business the Same Way Americans Do
Though both parties deal in US dollars, Americans and Chinese have vastly different business cultures. While America is transaction-oriented, China is relationship-oriented. There’s a chasm between these two styles of interaction. Basically Asian countries have a different understanding contracts and obligations. QTF. I'm amazed that people telling TSL is in the wrong here. I know TSL is falling apart, and it's better for players to leave them, but in this particular case, TSL did nothing wrong. Unlike the popular western belief, in a lot of countries, you can't just write something on a piece of paper, sign your name and call it a contract/agreement. I can't just go to a random convenient store, write my phone number and signature on the receipt and tell them if I don't pay they can sue me. In Asia, most people don't want anything to do with the government because it takes awful bureaucracy system. That's why people avoid and afraid to go in any form of contract. I know a lot of companies (small companies of course) that don't even have contract with their employees. It's not unusual to see relationship-oriented business, especially in this kind of industry where each team doesn't have solid sponsorship like EG yet. So yes, it's a moral code of conduct that you have to contact the managers/coaches before approaching the players, and EG broke that code. Even though EG is legally right, they make a bad name of themselves and the Koreans are beginning to aware, and I doubt they can expand their business in Korea. TLDR: EG did nothing wrong. Everyone else is being too sensitive. Lol, way to prove your point bro. It's much better for the PLAYER to go to a better team than a dying team. Teams do not make the game, it's the players. TSL and Puma did not trust each other enough to be in a contract. So you're upset that he left? Wth
Way to interpret the post, dude.
If the players make the game, Puma is still sitting in the basement and play UMS maps. No one will pay them to sit there and waste electricity.
Legally EG did nothing wrong, but in a moral-driven Korean esports business, EG did everything wrong. Business speaking, the best way to make profit is to do business over and over with the same partners, and tell me honestly, can you see any Korean teams willing to do business with EG after this?
I don't like EG, TSL or Puma, so I'm not upset that he left. And it's not about TSL and Puma trust to each other. it's about the trust organizations have for each other. If EG approach TSL first, then TSL tell Puma, then it's up to their trust to settle stuff out. In this case, Puma tell TSL after all things already settled, what else they were supposed to do? The tweet was worded nicely that TSL released Puma (of course since they can't fire him, they have no contract) but the other tweets from coach Lee seems to be greatly upset.
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On July 22 2011 01:44 Mioraka wrote:
I like how most people think EG's move is perfectly fine and good for them, while half of thepeople hate what they did, and the reason they did it is for marketing.
If your move make half of the people hate ur brand image, that's not a good move, that's a retarded move.
Can't control peoples opinions. EG did the best for EG. Puma did the best for Puma. If TSL did the best for TSL, this thread never exists.
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On July 22 2011 01:44 Walls wrote:
I am not saying puma did anything wrong here, I am only saying that coach lee should have been the first one to make the offer.
fixed that for you
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On July 22 2011 01:44 Walls wrote:
I am not saying puma did anything wrong here, I am only saying that coach lee should have been the first one to get the offer.
Yes, because my father should be the one who gets any job offer that employers want to give me.
Because your coach is your father, right? That's how filial piety works?
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On July 22 2011 01:33 jiveturkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:21 Luppy1 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. There's this freedom of everything in the west. Of course, self interest is important. But, from where I come from, you don't bite the hand that fed you. Personal gain is not > everything else. I wouldn't leave behind an aging relative who raised me just because I can move to the US(for eg.) and earn 2 times of what I can earn now unless if I have no values. Again, purely subjective. Your values are subjective and are not true or false. What we do know are true or false are the facts of the matter, which I explained. You can say what you would do, and you can say that you don't agree with what Puma did, but that does not make it objectively wrong.
The values are not subjective. For values, it's either whether you have it or you don't. The only thing subjective is the opinion resulting from whether you have certain values or not.
It's kinda sad if people can only recognize that something is wrong only if there are rules/laws against it.
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EPT
