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On July 22 2011 01:24 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:18 Proko wrote:On July 22 2011 01:15 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Carush wrote:
eg was willing to give something to puma that he wasn't getting from tsl
probably money, but if you don't like it get used to it
money makes the world go round EG could have and should have done that by talking to coach lee, not to the player... that is how its done normally with other sports. I absolutely disagree. Coach Lee doesn't own Puma. Only when a contract mandates you to go through management should you go through managedment. the rest of the time you should treat the player like he's a human being and can make his own decisions. I never said Lee was the owner, I said Lee was the manage. The fact that a player practices with a team a gets better at a certain sport means that they are obligated to that team, and because of that coach lee has the right at least be the first one the get the offer.
Boo.
Maybe Puma was making TSL's players a lot better by practicing with him. Maybe TSL owes Puma enough loyalty to pay him what he's worth. it goes both ways. The point is, unless the contract stipulates that you talk to management first, the only human, ethical way to do this is to go to the player himself. Don't treat people like commodities, treat them like people.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:26 hyptonic wrote:
Just hope he doesnt have to train with EG lol. They are one of the worst NA teams! I'm not a big IdrA fan but I certainly disagree with this, can you even name me two north american (not european) teams that they are worse than?
Sixjax, they were beaten 3 -1 by iS some random unknown team. Wouldn't surprise me if vile beat them in a clan war.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
No I do, I just disagree. It's not about stealing a player, they gave him an offer and he accepted. Why would he go to the coach? It's the player that makes the decision, not the coach.
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On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm
/utopia
No contract so who does give a shit in a business world. There's two aspects to esports, business and playing. The businessmen do the business and the players do the playing. No contract = up for grabs.
/back2utopia
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I don't really get all the EG-hate. Maybe it's because i was never interested in brood war and so i don't know about the conditions and rules about players switching their team there. But then again, this isn't brood war and there is no kespa or a similar organisation.
I can understand, that the TSL coach is upset, since he probably lost his strongest player and i guess EG should've at least contacted him. I think it's perfectly fine though, that they contacted Puma first, because if wasn't willing to join their team, contacting the coach wouldn,'t make any sense in the first place. This is not football (or any other big sport i guess) where every player has his own agent, that takes care of such offers.
We don't know for sure, how this all went down, because we've online got the TSL coach's statement, that is obviously biased. If it did go like this: EG asks Puma if he's interested in joining EG -> Puma says yes and tells his coach at TSL about his wish to join EG before EG has contacted TSL -> Puma is released from his contract before any proceedings can take place -> Puma, now teamless, joins EG; then i guess there's no reason to flip out about it.
Again, hating on EG without having more information about this seems out of place for me.
edit: I just heard that Puma didn't even have a contract @ TSL?
If that's true, than there's even less reason for EG to contact TSL. I'm not familiar with Korean culture too much, but from an EU point of view, the way EG acted in this is absolutely ok. Of course you can ask someone, who's basically a free agent, if he has interest in joining your team. And it seems very weird (read: dumb) that TSL has no contracts with their players.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
If there was no contract, that hardly makes him THEIR player.
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I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here.
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On July 22 2011 01:29 fush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm you mean the korean "moral value" that you belong to your manager and without their consent you can't leave elsewhere when given a better opportunity? wait what?
Not at all. Is it so wrong to expect EG to show respect to PuMa's coach?
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Walls wrote:
I can not change anything just buy answering people here adn trying to make my point like I have been doing in the past 5-6 pages.
most people are too delicate to change their minds.
Anyone who thinks about this and thinks about coach lee specifically without any bias would know.
take your own advice. you're clearly defending a silly point.
coach lee may be hurt, it's too bad, but he doesn't own puma. puma chose to go to EG when presented with an offer, and he didn't just pack his bags suddenly and leave - he says he consulted with his team as well.
what is the problem here? this "moral" issue of going through a manager first? was he going to ask for a transfer fee of some kind (probably not if puma wasn't on contract as some suggest)?
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On July 22 2011 01:30 flanksteak wrote:Next time you're offered a better job than you're working currently, be sure to turn it down out of loyalty 
Lol yeah, and while you're at it, ask the guy offering you a better job to ask your boss for permission first.
Free competition should remain free.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
If there was no contract he wasn't their player. This isn't the maffia.
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why stop at puma?
im sure most other top korean players aren't contracted as well.
just give mvp, losira and friends a ring.
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On July 22 2011 01:33 Futarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:30 flanksteak wrote:Next time you're offered a better job than you're working currently, be sure to turn it down out of loyalty Lol yeah, and while you're at it, ask the guy offering you a better job to ask your boss for permission first. Free competition should remain free.
That's hillariously true and there's really no way denying this. Cracking me up at work.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. There's this freedom of everything in the west. Of course, self interest is important. But, from where I come from, you don't bite the hand that fed you. Personal gain is not > everything else. I wouldn't leave behind an aging relative who raised me just because I can move to the US(for eg.) and earn 2 times of what I can earn now unless if I have no values. Again, purely subjective. Your values are subjective and are not true or false. What we do know are true or false are the facts of the matter, which I explained.
You can say what you would do, and you can say that you don't agree with what Puma did, but that does not make it objectively wrong.
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On July 22 2011 01:31 seoul_kiM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm /utopia No contract so who does give a shit in a business world. There's two aspects to esports, business and playing. The businessmen do the business and the players do the playing. No contract = up for grabs. /back2utopia
Your understanding of business is clearly shocking.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 Lankeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:29 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 01:27 Lankeer wrote:On July 22 2011 01:26 rofa wrote:
I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!! Yeah who gives a shit about the TSL players and management. Who gives a shit about the Korean moral values; as long as the foreign scene benefits then everyone else can go to hell. /sarcasm If the Koreans can't even sign contracts then yeah, they should have seen it coming. Puma has a salary now, does he not? He wasn't the property of TSL. You don't understand >.< Even if there was no contract, it doesn't give EG the right to go behind TSL's back and steal their most valuable player. It's basic ethics and respect.
Oh yeah, because that's exactly what EG did.
They stole into the TSL house in the middle of the night in balaclavas, held a chloroform-soaked rag over PuMa's face and threw him into the back of a van. The van drove to an American air force base, and they smuggled PuMa's lifeless body out of Korea in a cargo plane. PuMa is now being held captive in America against his will, chained to a desk in the EG house.
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On July 22 2011 01:32 enecateReAP wrote:
I challange each and every one of you, to stay in your current job and never move up - because then you'll be betraying your former employer!
In the real world, you don't offer a person's job to the person's boss, you offer it to the person, then it is THEIR DECISSION weather they accept. This was the case here.
On July 22 2011 01:30 flanksteak wrote:
Next time you're offered a better job than you're working currently, be sure to turn it down out of loyalty
We are simply flaming EG because they did not talk to coach lee first, do have anything to say about that? or is that not big of a deal ?
very disrespectful.
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On July 22 2011 01:30 jiveturkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc. Oh. So slavery was ethical when it was legal but then because unethical when it was illegal? Are you saying that what is ethical and unethical changes over time? It has to since laws change all the time. No, legality in no way implies morality. It's extremely obvious.
No, morals and ethics change over time and place. And laws change with them. Slavery was legal when it was not considered unethical by slavers. Not the other way around.
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On July 22 2011 01:29 Ruccola wrote:
Sir Scoots is one of the biggest clowns in e-sports. No surprise here.
who the hell are you to call Sir Scoots a clown? He's one of many on the forefront of e-sports.
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EPT
