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On July 22 2011 01:19 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:14 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:12 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. Yes. And? "Yes and?" what, he's trying to say that a team with a lower skill level should not try to bipass the coaches and go directly talk to the player and buy them out, not even if their skill level was higher they still should not have done it, Your whole argument is that team EG sucks and therefore shouldn't have the right to buy better players to fix that. That's bizarre, but whatever. Others' arguments are based on some Asian moral system. A moral system that we in North America don't share. Is PuMa some kind of Judas to the Korean team? Probably. That doesn't mean EG, a North American team, did anything wrong (unless you're looking at it from your point of view, ie bad teams shouldn't get good players).
Arguments based on the asian moral system? A system that NA doesn't share? It's called respect, its universal if you haven't heard of the word before. Most people have it but some people don't have any.
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On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc.
Pollution is bad. Carbon tax makes it legal to pollute as long as you can pay for it. But, at the same time, just because you can pay for it doesn't make pollution any less bad. Of course, there are better examples out there. But, I hope you can get what I'm trying to say.
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On July 22 2011 01:18 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:15 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Carush wrote:
eg was willing to give something to puma that he wasn't getting from tsl
probably money, but if you don't like it get used to it
money makes the world go round EG could have and should have done that by talking to coach lee, not to the player... that is how its done normally with other sports. I absolutely disagree. Coach Lee doesn't own Puma. Only when a contract mandates you to go through management should you go through managedment. the rest of the time you should treat the player like he's a human being and can make his own decisions.
I never said Lee was the owner, I said Lee was the manage. The fact that a player practices with a team a gets better at a certain sport means that they are obligated to that team, and because of that coach lee has the right at least be the first one the get the offer.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:12 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. Yes. And? "Yes and?" what, he's trying to say that a team with a lower skill level should not try to bipass the coaches and go directly talk to the player and buy them out, not even if their skill level was higher they still should not have done it, Your whole argument is that team EG sucks and therefore shouldn't have the right to buy better players to fix that. That's bizarre, but whatever. [...], the fact that team EG is a lesser team worsen this even more.
Umm no it doesn't. It doesn't matter at all. Are you saying IM had more rights to Puma than EG or say ZENEX? That makes zero sense and shouldn't enter the equation at all.
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On July 21 2011 23:45 VirtuallyJesse wrote:
This is great for Puma, more $, gets to be flown around and participate in foreign events (I'm assuming.) But for TSL who can't offer that to Puma, and they are already losing players left and right, I can see where they would feel betrayed and pissed. But, business can be like that sometimes. It's not like EG forced Puma to join, it was his own volition, so fair is fair.
Really agree with this. Its a shame to be in TSL's position but that's business for you. It is a great opportunity for Puma and I wish him the best of luck with EG. Hopefully there won't be excessive backlash from Korean fans.
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On July 21 2011 23:04 Sandro wrote:
Puma has gone from training with Flash to training with Incontrol.
LOOOOOOLLLLLLLL.
Good for EG I guess? A lot of people have seemed to take the stance that if it's not illegal, then it's ok. I'm sure that EG acquired Puma legally, but obviously through shady methods. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical.
Puma's skill is sure to decline if he moves into the EG house, unfortunately.
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Instead of jumping to TSL's defense immediately and accusing EG of stealing players it raised, we should probably ask why the sudden exodus from TSL? Rain, FD and Trickster all left, showing that Puma is not the only one leaving.
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On July 22 2011 01:18 dOofuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:11 Cheshyr wrote:
Congrats! SC2 has gotten to the point that the team managers are acting like other sports teams! That's progress.
As for the people complaining about EG buying up good players... that's the result of progress. FXO did the same thing, as did many other teams. There is more money on the scene, so the smaller teams can't afford to monopolize the best players. And more money means SC2 is successfully growing into a legitimate sport. Eventually, we'll see a regulatory commitee put limits on team spending budgets and the like, just like other sports.
Welcome to the evolution of e-sports... it's what we all wanted. Some people didn't think through all the implications of this success, and they're the vocal minority causing all the ruckus. I agree mostly. However, as Starcraft 2 is more of a global sport, with multiple leagues, how will a regulatory commitee be created that all leagues and teams will adhere to?
Blizzard? Aren't most of the big tournaments "registered" in some way with Blizzard? If so, they can just tell/ demand each tourny to "ban" certain teams/ players for not respecting the rules. I can see Blizz getting involved as a "FIFA" of SC2 esports :p
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On July 22 2011 01:24 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc. Pollution is bad. Carbon tax makes it legal to pollute as long as you can pay for it. But, at the same time, just because you can pay for it doesn't make pollution any less bad. Of course, there are better examples out there. But, I hope you can get what I'm trying to say.
Hence, carbon taxes are there precisely because pollution is bad. I'd still have to say that a vast majority of laws are based on morals. Sorry, not really on the same wavelength here with what you're trying to get at.
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That's really big news. EG getting some big big names
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I understand why EG did this and to be honest I don't blame them, and at the end of the day it Pumas decision. We also have to take into account that he isn't the only player to recently leave TSL, there might be more there.
I am however surprised EG didn't simply inform the coach/manager of TSL that they were interested in Puma, it seems like they would want to keep those relationships open and represent themselves in an ''above reproach'' manner considering how fickle the community can be over this type of thing and also the spotlight that has been put on them by remarks from people like Tyler.
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On July 22 2011 01:19 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:13 archangel2 wrote:On July 22 2011 01:11 jiveturkey wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid. It's unethical from your point of view, and ethical from other people's perspective. That does not mean that it is unethical. It is what it is. The transaction took place, and two parties benefit and one party loses out. That is the fact of the matter, and all of your moral issues with it are completely opinion, and that is all. And I think it's obvious that law is completely irrelevant to morality, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Are you kidding? So much of law stems from morality. How would you write laws without a prior concept of what's right and wrong? Why is there a law against murder? Theft? Etc. This is not just about whats right or wrong, although it is very important to think about the morality of this act, but we should also consider that this was done not the formal and proper way, they did not talk to coach lee. Team EG is not as good as TSL, the coach came up with ways to improve its players and team EG just "sneakily" bought them
It's not immoral, come down off your high horse there, Socrates.... They weren't sneaky, they just approached player who was not under contract. The point of making a contract is to keep this from happening, if TSL didnt make Puma sign one they were inviting this kind of behavior and tacitly OK-ing it. They're raising a fuss and going "OH POOR US" right now because they can't match EG's terms.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:12 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. Yes. And? "Yes and?" what, he's trying to say that a team with a lower skill level should not try to bipass the coaches and go directly talk to the player and buy them out, not even if their skill level was higher they still should not have done it, Your whole argument is that team EG sucks and therefore shouldn't have the right to buy better players to fix that. That's bizarre, but whatever. My argument is about team EG acquiring a player without talking to the manager of the other team, the fact that team EG is a lesser team worsen this even more.
so you're saying the players are simply the property of the manager, and without their consent they shouldn't be allowed to leave?
sweet.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 natey-nate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:19 murtas wrote:
Well i did not read the 170 page that already cover this, but If i'm understanding right, Puma hadn't a contract with TSL, which if it is true, is weird.
But otherwise he couldn't have signed a second contract because that would be illegal, if he was already contracted.
Which leads to the point, why wasn't he contracted with TSL and if that was because he was an "new" upcoming player.
Thats TSL fault for not binding their players sooner. Just like any other sports, when there is no contract everyone is free to go.
Dunno where all this morality thing is coming from. From TSL's tweet about "releasing" puma, it seems like he WAS contracted with TSL. Puma himself requested to be released before it expired so he could join EG. TSL conceded.
If he was contracted and they released it, it is their fault too, if they weren't happy about EG handling of the process, then just don't release the player if EG wants him, they need to pay what TSL desired to transfer the player just like every other sport.
Specially when this player is their ACE and letting him go for 0? Super weird in a financial perspective.
So again, i still believe he wasn't under contract or he contract expired. Otherwise, this would be illegal.
Point taken: TSL manager is really stupid in both situation, if he had a contract and released or if Puma hadn't a contract. And if there is more cases like this in the Korean scene, (good players without contract) I guess their managers should move fast or otherwise they will move too.
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I agree with everyone saying that this is a great move for EG. Sure, it sucks for the TSL team and management, having helped train and support Puma but the bottom line is that this will be awesome for the foreign scene. I hope that more foreign teams follow suit! EG FIGHTING!!!
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Just hope he doesnt have to train with EG lol. They are one of the worst NA teams!
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On July 22 2011 01:22 Thallis wrote:
"EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't."-FXOSHETH
The Free Agent part is the point of contention. If what Sheth is saying is indeed true, then EG are totally in the clear.
Not sure how teams work in Korea if they don't contract their players.
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On July 22 2011 01:23 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:12 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. Yes. And? "Yes and?" what, he's trying to say that a team with a lower skill level should not try to bipass the coaches and go directly talk to the player and buy them out, not even if their skill level was higher they still should not have done it, Your whole argument is that team EG sucks and therefore shouldn't have the right to buy better players to fix that. That's bizarre, but whatever. Others' arguments are based on some Asian moral system. A moral system that we in North America don't share. Is PuMa some kind of Judas to the Korean team? Probably. That doesn't mean EG, a North American team, did anything wrong (unless you're looking at it from your point of view, ie bad teams shouldn't get good players). Arguments based on the asian moral system? A system that NA doesn't share? It's called respect, its universal if you haven't heard of the word before. Most people have it but some people don't have any.
If TSL respected Puma they wouldn't have strung him along as a free agent. The coach should have put his money where his mouth is.
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On July 22 2011 01:21 frequency wrote:
This kind of stuff has happened for years in e-sports, just so you know. If it's good or bad is up to the individual to decide, but stop acting as if this has never happened before.
It's just the first time something like this has happen to Korean sc2 players, so the Korean scene is super sensitive; and since so much of TL are fanboys for the Korean scene, they're sensitive about it too.
Actually, I doubt that a foreign team has ever poached a Korean sc1 player either; idk about the Korean wc3 scene, but this may be the highest-profile case of international player poaching ever for Korea.
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On July 22 2011 01:23 doihy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 01:12 bonifaceviii wrote:On July 22 2011 01:05 Luppy1 wrote:
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. Yes. And? "Yes and?" what, he's trying to say that a team with a lower skill level should not try to bipass the coaches and go directly talk to the player and buy them out, not even if their skill level was higher they still should not have done it, Your whole argument is that team EG sucks and therefore shouldn't have the right to buy better players to fix that. That's bizarre, but whatever. Others' arguments are based on some Asian moral system. A moral system that we in North America don't share. Is PuMa some kind of Judas to the Korean team? Probably. That doesn't mean EG, a North American team, did anything wrong (unless you're looking at it from your point of view, ie bad teams shouldn't get good players). Arguments based on the asian moral system? A system that NA doesn't share? It's called respect, its universal if you haven't heard of the word before. Most people have it but some people don't have any.
Buying out the player without talking to the coach? Why would they do such a thing, their team is not as good as TSL and they dont try to get better at the game the way TSL did, instead they try to buy out one of their best players without even talking to the manager of the other team.
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EPT
