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On July 21 2011 18:09 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:01 IcedBacon wrote:On July 21 2011 17:55 yeint wrote:On July 21 2011 17:49 IcedBacon wrote:
I like how 99% of the people posting about this have absolutely no knowledge or experience with how korean culture works. It's not the same guys. The dumb analogy with the employer? Doesn't work when it's between the West and the East. Time to go to bed. Just because the corporate culture in Asia loves to exploit their cultural propensity for respect of one's elders doesn't make it okay. It's tantamount to defending good ol' boy white male preferentialism because it's rooted in regional cultural values. The "employer/employee" relationship isn't an analogy, it's a fact. This isn't a martial arts movie, this is real life. People need to earn money to live, and they do so by working for organizations that pay them for it. Ah, complete disrespect of another culture. Sorry but not everyone is greedy like in the West. I am not disrespecting another culture. And I am not American. I am saying that greedy profiteers exploit their employees by painting their relationship as a "respect your elders" one. Show nested quote +So you know how in this recession in the USA, CEOs are giving themselves and other high-ranking employees raises when there's no spare cash to be throwing around? Well there was some article about a Japanese CEO (of a huge company, FYI) who lowered his pay to either that of the average employee or even to nothing (can't remember which one it was) and had his lunch in the common cafeteria with the average employees. Weaboo alert. While you're throwing around caricatures of how Japanese CEOs are all altruists and all western businesses are corrupt robber barons, how about you explain the massive suicide rates in these magical Japanese "business families". Bullshit. Your employer is not your family. Your family is your family. Just like individualism in the West is taken to an extreme at times by despicable and greedy assholes, so are Asian collectivist values exploited by greedy and power-hungry assholes.
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
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The reason why koreans are so strong is because they have their team houses with very strong players in it set up and a strict practise schedule.
By leaving TSL Puma has to quit the house too and now he doesnt have this practise environment anymore. It will be hard for him to get better effiently now except EG can get him into another team house, but if they can not and Puma goes to the US and joins the EG house i doubt he will maintain the strength he has at the moment or improve his abilities.
congrats to this very nice pickup EG no doubt about that, but it remains to be seen if this decision from Puma was a good one
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Even though TSL lost a lot of top players recently, the team still has players like Killer, Clide and Alive.
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On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:On July 21 2011 17:28 Stuv wrote:
It makes you wonder what EG gets from this deal. I dont think he will live with the other EG-members so they have an extra practice partner. So it is purely for promotion during tournaments. He is a great player though so kudo's to EG. They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist.
Except you don't understand why Korea succeeds as well as they do. The culture here supports progamers. Ask anyone on the street about pro gaming and most people in the States would just laugh at you. EG House is a right step, but no one is silly enough to think that it's enough to compete with all the perks of living in Korea to be a top player.
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On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:On July 21 2011 17:28 Stuv wrote:
It makes you wonder what EG gets from this deal. I dont think he will live with the other EG-members so they have an extra practice partner. So it is purely for promotion during tournaments. He is a great player though so kudo's to EG. They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans on the highest level. Sooner or later they all lose vs better koreans.. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck.
Which is why EG is investing in bringing great Korean players to their team and a team house. They are actually doing things to help raise the level of the foreign scene.
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On July 21 2011 18:01 jarrydesque wrote:
You have to laugh at all the tough guys putting on their grim faces and dropping the "it's business" like it's a 10 ton argument stopper. By saying things like that, you're actually showing that you have no idea what business is about. Any big corporation would want to be seen as ethical and reputable. Going around shafting people earns you a bad reputation which is bad for business. This is common sense.
I don't study law, but it is my understanding that an oral contract is no less binding than a written contract (as recognized by the law) with the only exception being through the Statute of Fraud - essentially denying that there was an agreement altogether. In my opinion, if you receive a salary from someone, there must be some sort of understanding, contract or no.
Aaaanyway, none of that really matters now, because it is done. There is nothing more to comment on until EG makes a statement.
I'm going to go ahead and quote myself.
"Puma lived in the same house with ten other guys, slept on a bunk bed like a ten year old boy, and probably made as much as a cashier at McDonald's."
I think a lot of people romanticize the life of a professional gaming. In the grand scheme of things, most of these players make shit money and are expected to sacrifice 50 to 60 hours a week to their team.
Sure, you might think EG behaved "unethically". But what did they really do, ultimately? They offered a guy with a 'glamourous' but not very lucrative job, a better job with more security.
The question I have is why TSL didn't try to match the offer.
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On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:On July 21 2011 17:28 Stuv wrote:
It makes you wonder what EG gets from this deal. I dont think he will live with the other EG-members so they have an extra practice partner. So it is purely for promotion during tournaments. He is a great player though so kudo's to EG. They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist.
Puma isn't even going to the house is he? Becuase someone said EG would fly him to different events (So im assumeing that means hes staying in Korea?)
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On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:On July 21 2011 17:28 Stuv wrote:
It makes you wonder what EG gets from this deal. I dont think he will live with the other EG-members so they have an extra practice partner. So it is purely for promotion during tournaments. He is a great player though so kudo's to EG. They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist.
You don't get my point.
If PuMa moves to the U.S.A. he can't practice with his old practice partners. Also his team and his coach won't help him anymore, and the coach is an important factor of the teams.
So he basically loses everything that made him good(practice partners, KR ladder, coach, the entire environment) and gets the NA ladder, only 1 decent practice partner, no coach and no real team house.
@jmbthirteen:
Same thing.
Just bringing the players is not everything. The coaches, the overall ONLY GOOD practice partners (you won't get a shitty master players in korea unlike in NA), and the DISCIPLINE to train EFFICENTLY 10 hours a day(not stream 5 hours with shitty gameplay and no replay analysis whatsoever.)
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On July 21 2011 18:09 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:07 CellTech wrote:On July 21 2011 17:53 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 17:47 vnlegend wrote:
Pretty dirty move by EG. This only reinforces the Koreans hatred for Idra and co. I suppose the Koreans are too used to their customs with management discussions and free agency periods.
They can prevent this kind of poaching by having team members sign more binding contracts. How is it dirty???? EG offered more benefit to puma than tsl ever could.... I bet your a guy that blames lebron for leaving Cleveland also..... lol Who's fault was it then? Lebron made a decision along with Bosh and Wade at the Olympics that they (Bosh and Lebron) sign contracts that would end at the same time, so they could all be on the same team. Lebron abandoned his HOME TOWN in hopes of getting an easy win. Look, you guys obviously don't understand. LeBron is hated as much as he's hated because of HOW he left Cleveland, not WHY. This is the same reasoning with PuMa. It's HOW he left, not WHY. It's very obvious why he left. He got a better offer at EG. It's HOW he left, and HOW EG went straight to him that is disrespectful.
LeBron is hated because hes been handed everything on a silver platter since 7th grade, called the greatest of all time by fanboys, and FAILS TO PRODUCE CHAMPIONSHIPS. Even when all the chips are in his lap.
Puma has something LeBron will never have. A title.
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WHAAAAAAAAAAT? Holy shit I didn't see that coming. Great for EG I guess.
Oh and the people saying there's anything disrespectful going on.. really? Have you never taken another job because you found something superior to whatever you were in?
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PlayXP.com Article Link
Rough Translation summary
Korean SCII scene is becoming "farm" for foreign team
1. As of now, there is no contract between players and teams.
2. Infrastructure needs to be setup ASAP to prevent moves like this possible.
3. current SCII organization is not doing much.
4. Foreign SCII scene is becoming huge and Korean SCII scene needs to grow
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I like How the foreign scene is growing I just hope it doesn't severely injure the Korean Scene. I predict TSL disbands and either A.(good) they get a good foreign team to be in gstl, or B.(bad) they get some crappy unheard of Korean team.
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On July 21 2011 18:08 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:05 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west. uh no its not, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_(sport) Except there are no rules in place to say EG tampered... we're comparing scenes here, obviously? I know there are no rules in place to say EG tampered, but talking in comparison, that is EXACTLY what EG did (assuming the content in OP is correct). Now assuming Puma did not have a binding contract, it's obviously legally not a problem, but morally? not so sure.. Morals??!?!?!? lol Your thinking like PUMA owes something to TSL..... He owes them nothing and EG has the right to try an make their team the best possible team they can please explain to me what they did wrong? They talked to puma when they were close? ohhhhhh noooooooo -.-..... TSL provided Puma a place to stay and food to eat for free, along with really good practice partners, coaching and some salary (I think). I do think Puma owes something to TSL
He gave them what he owed in practicing hard and winning. He owes nothing especially when he doesn't have anything in a contract stating so. Everything else is just some vague creation on your own part. You could pull that card every time he tried to leave, if they cared that much they should make him sign a contract.
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On July 21 2011 18:10 Probe1 wrote:So is Puma moving to the states or what. He can't practice for the GSL on his own in Korea. And EG has a very different team house than what he is used to. I see this as a very bad move, motivated by financial incentives + Show Spoiler +. Good luck PuMa. You'll need it.
He just won a big chunk of change, now he is greedy because he wants to get paid to travel, participate in more tournaments and earn a living?
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On July 21 2011 18:10 karfussen wrote:
Definitely great addition for EG for bringing a player who is miles above the rest of their team. Still, the way they bought is a bit disrespectful.
Looking forward to MLG Anaheim and EG.DongRaeGu few weeks later.
I should hope that DRG has enough loyalty to his team to keep that from happening.
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Seems kinda a dick move... but we don't have enough information to completely judge it. We still don't know what's going on in TSL. Feel bad for their coach and the team, its all just falling apart.
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From the just superficial this looks similar to what recently happened in CS with the player conflict of SK gaming and Fnatik. The player already had a contract with SK gaming and was approached by Fnatik and signed with them and played with Fnatik during DHS11. I couldnt find the article to give the correct name and since i dont follow CS at all i dont know the name at all. I assume someone will fill in the blank name.
During Dreamhack there was a lecture or pitch from a group that were interested in starting an E-sports federation in Sweden similar to what has already happened in many countries around the world already. And this federation would of course enforce rules about how player contracts and stuff should be formed and followed, rules for tournaments etc. Players would have player licenses much like in Kespa i guess. If you broke the rules you would have your license removed etc.
However since the Starcraft scene is larger than any one country, small federations in small countries may be too powerless and being banned by one the federation in one country would be no big deal. Perhaps then a larger international federation could instead be formed by the large starcraft leagues/tournaments in the world.
GomTV and MLG have a very close relationship and from what i understand so does Dreamhack.
The way the tournaments in Starcraft is formed i think it is quite comparable to either tennis or golf works. If there is a big federation that these large tournaments are part of it could make for a very solid and professional tournament scene. Players could have like a world rank depending on how they place in certain tournaments etc.
I am rambling on a bit here. Just my 2 cents.
Kisses and hugs
*Edit: BTW I love EG they have some really cool players, IdrA, Machine, Incontrol and Demuslim Hwaiting*
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On July 21 2011 18:10 Gamegene wrote:
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
I'm glad you conceded the argument by not having one.
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On July 21 2011 18:10 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:
[quote]
They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist. Except you don't understand why Korea succeeds as well as they do. The culture here supports progamers. Ask anyone on the street about pro gaming and most people in the States would just laugh at you. EG House is a right step, but no one is silly enough to think that it's enough to compete with all the perks of living in Korea to be a top player.
Maybe they should focus less on esports culture and focus more on having better benefits for players so they want to stay in Korea?
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The question is: can the foreigner team raise their own (foreigner) players into champions and keep the player they brought at a high level? Buying good players isn't a long term solution.
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EPT
