|
On July 21 2011 18:08 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:05 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west. uh no its not, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_(sport) Except there are no rules in place to say EG tampered... we're comparing scenes here, obviously? I know there are no rules in place to say EG tampered, but talking in comparison, that is EXACTLY what EG did (assuming the content in OP is correct). Now assuming Puma did not have a binding contract, it's obviously legally not a problem, but morally? not so sure.. Morals??!?!?!? lol Your thinking like PUMA owes something to TSL..... He owes them nothing and EG has the right to try an make their team the best possible team they can please explain to me what they did wrong? They talked to puma when they were close? ohhhhhh noooooooo -.-..... TSL provided Puma a place to stay and food to eat for free, along with really good practice partners, coaching and some salary (I think). I do think Puma owes something to TSL
And puma provided what was obligated off him ( the argument your saying is i fed you don't leave me.....) Puma wearing their shirt for the time he got fed is what he offered back to tsl and he did it till the end.... so your argument is invalid. And to the practice partner he was one offering his practice also and not to say this but they also lost this with sks and fruit dealer....
|
On July 21 2011 18:07 Jerubaal wrote:
I love all the RESPECT THE KOREAN CULTURE YOU GREEDY AMERICAN PIGS!!! comments.
Those are truly the best.
1. Disguise draconian practices as "respect" and "culture"
2. Insult America
3. ?????
4. Profit!
|
On July 21 2011 18:08 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:06 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:05 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west. uh no its not, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_(sport) Except there are no rules in place to say EG tampered... we're comparing scenes here, obviously? I know there are no rules in place to say EG tampered, but talking in comparison, that is EXACTLY what EG did (assuming the content in OP is correct). Now assuming Puma did not have a binding contract, it's obviously legally not a problem, but morally? not so sure.. Morals??!?!?!? lol Your thinking like PUMA owes something to TSL..... He owes them nothing and EG has the right to try an make their team the best possible team they can please explain to me what they did wrong? They talked to puma when they were close? ohhhhhh noooooooo -.-..... i guess this is a conflict of our sense of morality.. can't really argue about that It would be a conflict if morals played a role here but they didn't.... EG asked hey wanna play for us... Puma thought about and said yes...... TSL has no contract with puma or anything over puma why should puma stay with TSL if he chooses not to.... take your emotions out of it since your not affected and look at it logically...
again, this argument is pointless, you and I just have different perspectives on morals
i personally think TSL picked up puma when he was a nonamer in sc2, and provided him with structured practice/practice partner and a place to stay, eat, etc. and I also think the team should obviously be at least told when their player is being offered a position or something (again, not legally, but morally). i think everything would've been fine if TSL had just been notified DURING their talk, not after when Puma decided already.
|
|
|
Pretty funny  all this talk about growing esports etc. Then something happens which is the most common thing in the world of normal sports, player transfers, a lot of people get mad.
Isnt a better environment for players what we want? If teams have to offer players more to keep them, the environment will get more professional. Teams that pay players have more demands --> more results possilby. In real sports teams make their players train their asses off, if this happens in sc2 as well we will get to see better games and results.
|
i dont think Puma skill will go down.because alot of interviews i saw from code S player they practice with other players teams , like example byun practice with MMA ,MKP.ryung.sc.taeja rather than practice his own teammate to beat bomber.sorry for my english
|
This is kind of sad news for TSL but there are things going in within the team I don't think I can reveal but yeah, things are not going the best right now for the TSL management. I hope they can get things back together.
But on other news, Puma Joining EG would be pretty awesome, E-Sports!!! 
|
On July 21 2011 18:12 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:10 Gamegene wrote:
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
I'm glad you conceded the argument by not having one.
There's no point in arguments when a country's business is compared to it's suicide rates.
|
On July 21 2011 18:05 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:53 Kairos~ wrote:On July 21 2011 17:52 MrBorto wrote:
Upsetting the entire Korean community is not exactly a wise move.
This seems like the key problem. In the short term how comfortable are korean teams going to be now sending players to events like MLG? The future of these exchanges are literally at stake with this type of business practice. I wonder who EG is going to snatch up at Anaheim. (: The terms "D" "R" and "G" come to mind. That'd be nuts, lol.
EGDongRaeGu
Has a nice ring to it, rolls right off the tongue.
XP
|
On July 21 2011 18:12 EaryKing wrote:
The question is: can the foreigner team raise their own (foreigner) players into champions and keep the player they brought at a high level? Buying good players isn't a long term solution.
Only if you can't re-sign them.
|
On July 21 2011 18:10 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:On July 21 2011 17:34 setzer wrote:
[quote]
They want to fly Puma and have him win tournaments since no one else besides Idra is capable of doing that. Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist. Except you don't understand why Korea succeeds as well as they do. The culture here supports progamers. Ask anyone on the street about pro gaming and most people in the States would just laugh at you. EG House is a right step, but no one is silly enough to think that it's enough to compete with all the perks of living in Korea to be a top player.
It has to start somewhere. EG is doing it right. Bring in a top Korean pro, get a team house, practice like the Koreans and have the environment like a Korean pro house.
Foreigners cannot continue to rely on just going to Korea to reach their level. They need to raise the level right here in the States and in Europe. What EG is doing will do just that.
|
On July 21 2011 18:09 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:07 CellTech wrote:On July 21 2011 17:53 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 17:47 vnlegend wrote:
Pretty dirty move by EG. This only reinforces the Koreans hatred for Idra and co. I suppose the Koreans are too used to their customs with management discussions and free agency periods.
They can prevent this kind of poaching by having team members sign more binding contracts. How is it dirty???? EG offered more benefit to puma than tsl ever could.... I bet your a guy that blames lebron for leaving Cleveland also..... lol Who's fault was it then? Lebron made a decision along with Bosh and Wade at the Olympics that they (Bosh and Lebron) sign contracts that would end at the same time, so they could all be on the same team. Lebron abandoned his HOME TOWN in hopes of getting an easy win. Look, you guys obviously don't understand. LeBron is hated as much as he's hated because of HOW he left Cleveland, not WHY. This is the same reasoning with PuMa. It's HOW he left, not WHY. It's very obvious why he left. He got a better offer at EG. It's HOW he left, and HOW EG went straight to him that is disrespectful.
As an NBA fan, I think LeBron is hated because of "The Decision." Most see it as totally unnecessary, and it just exudes arrogance and attention. Of course, "tampering" to team up with Wade and Bosh didn't exactly help with the public image. I would say it's a bit different from PuMa's case.
|
On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west.
Catz and drewbie were in the loop there. It went like this.
FXO says they will get team. FXO says "hi sheth" discussions start with sheth as intermediary, and sheth decides to join FXO. Catz and I remain on talking terms.
QXC tells root "guys i need more financial support so I'll look for a team". Qxc comes to FXO, QXC decides to join FXO, and does so.. Drewbie catz and Boss get drunk at MLG together and much a laugh is had.
I'm not saying catz drewbie etc and I are best friends. We obviously aren't. But there was no 'love lost' because of that situation.
Thats because they were kept in the loop of whats going on. I.e ethical practice.
I don't think scoots is the kind of guy who would be un-ethical (God i hope not and i wait for more to be announced but what has been announced, from not only a business point of view (after all I am a business dick) but from a community point of view, is unethical. It damages reputations, it then may start a snowballing effect if legal disregard (in terms of contracts). It also encourages players to be a little bit more selfish, which sometimes can already be a problem.
I am not saying its a bad sign up etc, or that EG is the demon of sc2. But from a corporate point of view, without paying a signing bonus to TSL etc, its incorrect. I usually don't do business with companies who are known for under the table head hunting..
NOTE: I Am not accusing, just stating that if it is true, then as per above. But Ithink there is more to it, cos I know scoots well enough.
|
On July 21 2011 18:05 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 17:53 Kairos~ wrote:On July 21 2011 17:52 MrBorto wrote:
Upsetting the entire Korean community is not exactly a wise move.
This seems like the key problem. In the short term how comfortable are korean teams going to be now sending players to events like MLG? The future of these exchanges are literally at stake with this type of business practice. I wonder who EG is going to snatch up at Anaheim. (: The terms "D" "R" and "G" come to mind. That'd be nuts, lol.
If that happens and EG doesnt atleast participate in GSTL i will be pissed as shit
|
On July 21 2011 18:11 SourD wrote:PlayXP.com Article LinkRough Translation summary Korean SCII scene is becoming "farm" for foreign team 1. As of now, there is no contract between players and teams. 2. Infrastructure needs to be setup ASAP to prevent moves like this possible. 3. current SCII organization is not doing much. 4. Foreign SCII scene is becoming huge and Korean SCII scene needs to grow
Thank you for the underlining.
Your post would have gotten lost in the 100-page shitstorm if it didn't have that.
|
On July 21 2011 18:12 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:08 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:05 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 17:57 Tachion wrote:
Players like Sheth and QXC left ROOT for FXO because of money and travel expenses etc which ROOT couldn't provide. FXOBoss sure didn't consult drewbie and catz and ask them for their permission.
Is this a disrespecting Korean ethics thing? Cause stuff like this is very common when players switch teams in the west. uh no its not, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_(sport) Except there are no rules in place to say EG tampered... we're comparing scenes here, obviously? I know there are no rules in place to say EG tampered, but talking in comparison, that is EXACTLY what EG did (assuming the content in OP is correct). Now assuming Puma did not have a binding contract, it's obviously legally not a problem, but morally? not so sure.. Morals??!?!?!? lol Your thinking like PUMA owes something to TSL..... He owes them nothing and EG has the right to try an make their team the best possible team they can please explain to me what they did wrong? They talked to puma when they were close? ohhhhhh noooooooo -.-..... i guess this is a conflict of our sense of morality.. can't really argue about that It would be a conflict if morals played a role here but they didn't.... EG asked hey wanna play for us... Puma thought about and said yes...... TSL has no contract with puma or anything over puma why should puma stay with TSL if he chooses not to.... take your emotions out of it since your not affected and look at it logically... again, this argument is pointless, you and I just have different perspectives on morals i personally think TSL picked up puma when he was a nonamer in sc2, and provided him with structured practice/practice partner and a place to stay, eat, etc. and I also think the team should obviously be at least told when their player is being offered a position or something (again, not legally, but morally). i think everything would've been fine if TSL had just been notified DURING their talk, not after when Puma decided already.
You're right, Puma should be stuck with TSL for life, no matter how shitty the situation gets.
|
On July 21 2011 18:11 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:01 jarrydesque wrote:
You have to laugh at all the tough guys putting on their grim faces and dropping the "it's business" like it's a 10 ton argument stopper. By saying things like that, you're actually showing that you have no idea what business is about. Any big corporation would want to be seen as ethical and reputable. Going around shafting people earns you a bad reputation which is bad for business. This is common sense.
I don't study law, but it is my understanding that an oral contract is no less binding than a written contract (as recognized by the law) with the only exception being through the Statute of Fraud - essentially denying that there was an agreement altogether. In my opinion, if you receive a salary from someone, there must be some sort of understanding, contract or no.
Aaaanyway, none of that really matters now, because it is done. There is nothing more to comment on until EG makes a statement.
I'm going to go ahead and quote myself. "Puma lived in the same house with ten other guys, slept on a bunk bed like a ten year old boy, and probably made as much as a cashier at McDonald's." I think a lot of people romanticize the life of a professional gaming. In the grand scheme of things, most of these players make shit money and are expected to sacrifice 50 to 60 hours a week to their team. Sure, you might think EG behaved "unethically". But what did they really do, ultimately? They offered a guy with a 'glamourous' but not very lucrative job, a better job with more security. The question I have is why TSL didn't try to match the offer.
And the other part of it, it's pretty clear he wants to participate in a the foreigner scene and joined one of the best foreign teams. Hell, for all we know, he could of approach EG first, like Choya did with FXO. Koreans want to compete outside Korea it seems.
|
Here is how I see this. EG could have...
A) Respected TSL by talking to the coach first. (while simultaneously disrespecting Puma by putting what his team wants above his wants)
Or B) Respect Puma by talking to him about HIS future (while pissing off a coach that thinks he owns the players on the team he runs)
Would you rather piss off the player you want to represent your team or people you most likely wont have to deal with again? EG made the right call here. Players > Managers
The coach or manager has no place in talks such as these. If a player wants to pursue alternative routs, he should be able to with out checking if its ok with "Big Brother".
It makes me sad how many people are putting a team before the player involved.
|
On July 21 2011 18:12 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:10 Chaggi wrote:On July 21 2011 18:09 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:07 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:06 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 21 2011 18:04 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:03 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 21 2011 18:02 KeksX wrote:On July 21 2011 18:01 Demonace34 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:58 vrok wrote:
[quote]
Idra is capable of winning LAN tournaments? Source please. How many MLG's has there been? Wait, did he win one of those....last year maybe? Against foreigners, maybe? Then suddenly koreans, IdrA not winning. A coincidence? Idra got 4th.?? everyone else got fukin slaughtered by the koreans as well. The point is that IdrA can't stand against the koreans constantly, he is not at their level. How is that going to help against koreans? Yea sure, PuMa will beat foreigners, too, but he won't be able to beat koreans constantly by just practicing with bad players. Why do you want SC2 to fail outside of korea so hard? Why not give foreign teams a chance to take the game seriously before the whole "puma will turn to shit without korean practice partners" line? I don't want SC2 to fail, it's just that foreigners are clearly not able to compete with the koreans. They have shitty practice conditions and also focus on marketing/PR way too much. To say it in the words of an ancient member: Foreigners still suck. And how do they get better? By GETTING GOOD PLAYERS AND TEAM HOUSES. This is what EG is doing. If your logic is that Real practice + Team house = bad players because they are not in korea, you are being kinda racist. Except you don't understand why Korea succeeds as well as they do. The culture here supports progamers. Ask anyone on the street about pro gaming and most people in the States would just laugh at you. EG House is a right step, but no one is silly enough to think that it's enough to compete with all the perks of living in Korea to be a top player. Maybe they should focus less on esports culture and focus more on having better benefits for players so they want to stay in Korea?
Except the esports culture was developed by SC1 and is still with SC1. The money is in SC1. Everything is in SC1.
It's much less of a focus, and more that companies don't want to sponsor more teams cause they already got a great thing going on.
|
Seriously, a real dick move by EG... oh well. I'm glad that Puma is becoming more and more recognized!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
