On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I think you don't know what you're talking about, but maybe that's just me.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
Im not sure which part of what he said seems like denail. Hes wrong in saying that BW success means nothing but 100% of BW a teamers arent going to switch and become SC2 A teamers. If you doubt this use other games as a reference. There have been lots of games where pro's switch from one game to a sequal and while many enjoy the same level of sucess quite a few have trouble adjusting to what is different.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
What do you consider success? Winning a GSL? Being in Code S? Every GSL winner (code a and s) besides Polt has a background in BW and almost every player in the GSL has a background in BW. If you can't see the correlation between BW and SC2 you aren't looking hard enough.
The only correlation is that it seems to give the player a headstart. Nothing more. People used to laugh at Nestea because he had a terrible BW showing, commenting that his fame would soon fade when more decorated players would join the fray. When those players have come, however, they're the ones who flicker instead of shine.
You'd think that this coveted BW experience would give them some huge advantage over the competition, so the top 8 would always showcase the best that came from BW. This isn't the case. They don't show consistent results when the cards are down. You don't see trends where the only people to take out MVP, MC, Nestea, etc. are each other. Instead the competition is so cutthroat that these players only enjoy a marginally better chance at a run for the championship one season at a time.
I'm asking for evidence that BW results, and not simply pro experience, somehow translates into definitive domination of SC2. Until then, I retain my position that all we could expect from forgg in SC2 is that he would be seen in the GSL.
Mechanics do transfer... many of them maintain very high apm compared to white people... nada still has very high apm compared to many and that never changed at all...
The training of 8-12 hours a day is still the same for many of them... so that's not really different...
Getting used to new units and different strategies might not since they're very much different...
but they do very well in NA tournaments... and other ones outside korea...and consistently being white people...but you'd prob think their opponents were terrible or so?
I wish people would stop arguing about the relevance of BW success to SC2. If it makes you feel bad, just consider it competitive rts success and SC2. It's the same way that people expect so much of moon.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
The way I understand it is such... Having success in BW doesn't immediately mean you'll be top class in SC2, unless you put in the work. That is what made BW players so good; how much work they put into the game. That is also what makes SC2 players so good. The perfect examples of this are Fruitdealer and Tester, who were relatively good at BW, but have reportedly started slacking off in SC2, and are therefore not showing as good results as players who did worse in BW.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
IM_Ready
IMBeSt
One could only hope.
Hell no, BeSt isn't joining the dark side. I shudder at the thought.
There's only one team for him to go to if he switches, everything else would be blasphemy.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
The way I understand it is such... Having success in BW doesn't immediately mean you'll be top class in SC2, unless you put in the work. That is what made BW players so good; how much work they put into the game. That is also what makes SC2 players so good. The perfect examples of this are Fruitdealer and Tester, who were relatively good at BW, but have reportedly started slacking off in SC2, and are therefore not showing as good results as players who did worse in BW.
Yeah, this is very true.
Hard working players will ALWAYS beat (significantly) less hard working players in the long run. Always. They can have a background in Pong. In fact, if you look at Nani and Thorzain's games from over 7-8 months ago, they're actually... awful. But now they're top tier foreign players because of the work they put in.
That said, it's kind of natural to assume that players who are serious about it will also give their 100%, but at the same time has to be considered that a lot of BW players who make the switch are really burnt out from years of living in a team house and playing working insane hours. It's hard to be motivated and to keep doing the same thing after you switch, especially as a lot of the actual SC2 teams are very relaxed and don't push their players as hard.
So yeah, success depends on a lot of variables, and even BW players are still human. But if you could clone any A or S class BW player at his best condition and get him to SC2, I've no doubt in my mind that they would be dominant for their mechanics and multitasking alone.
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
IM_Ready
IMBeSt
One could only hope.
Hell no, BeSt isn't joining the dark side. I shudder at the thought.
There's only one team for him to go to if he switches, everything else would be blasphemy.
And the name "Best" is already quite tainted in the SC2 world...
This could be pretty exciting, Forgg would get to be one of the few decent players (of recent times) switching over to SC2 from BW. Forgg might start tearing it up if he actually chooses to!
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
So basically you post all the exceptions?
Normal A-Teamers generally get to the point where they might win a Star League between 18 and 21. Which is the age at which guys like MC and MVP switched to Sc2.
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
So basically you post all the exceptions?
Normal A-Teamers generally get to the point where they might win a Star League between 18 and 21. Which is the age at which guys like MC and MVP switched to Sc2.
That's true that most progamers peak at around 18-21. But the reason why BW B-teamers and some A-teamers left BW for SC2 at 16-18 is because they showed no promise or results at the game. They had no future in BW regardless of their age, so they followed the money and jumped ship (a good decision for them, obviously). The S-class players and A-teamers in BW today were extremely good at 16-18.
On July 18 2011 10:11 dRaW wrote: ForGGs skill rapidly declined over the years, I wouldn't say he would tear the scene up but he would be a formidable player (as sc2 =! sc:bw)
He's still better than everyone else that switched. Call a different game or whatever (it's really not), but SC2 would probably fit forgg's style more with all the 1-2 base timing attacks Terran can do.
Man can you guys stop arguing about pointless shit so I can find out if there's any updates on whether he's taking it seriously or not without having to trudge through 16 pages of inane hypotheticals based off evidently random data. The only people who give a crap about what any of you say are people who disagree with you.
EPT
