So yesterday on Huk's stream it was revealed that Raptor who is currently rank 16 GM on the Korean ladder is in fact fOrGG: This could be an elaborate hoax by Huk and the owner of the raptor account, but there are some evidence that this is likely fOrGG. fOrGG announced his retirement on December 28th, 2010. The raptor account was initially placed into gold on January 8th, 2011 according to sc2ranks.com: It has also previously been mentioned in another stream chat that Raptor is a former SC1 progamer. I did not save a copy of that stream chat, but it was on either San's stream or ZeNEXTandongho (I don't really remember) and by the streamer himself or someone helping him set up who definitely seemed certain.
Obviously this does not clear up whether he plans to take up sc2 progaming or whether it is just a hobby. However this season he had over 1200 games played which is higher than the vast majority of the Korean GM league (these figures may be skewed slightly as progamers in team houses likely do a larger amount of customs). This suggests he is at least taking it seriously.
I'm not sure whether fOrGG really understood that Huk was streaming and therefore was a bit hestitant about making this topic, but either way Huk had 5000+ viewers and some discussion about it in the Huk streamchat has now been linked on reddit so I figured it's already out there and we may as well have a discussion thread here on TL. Either way I don't see how it could really hurt fOrGG.
The relevant game can be found in the VOD: http://www.justin.tv/liquidhuk/b/290221945 It is at the end of part 2 and goes on in part 3 (starts at about 1:57:20 in part 2).
EDIT: Apparently many sc2 players do not know forgg. He was a very strong bw player playing on kt with flash for the last part of his career, but originally on oz. In 2008 he won the Arena MSL beating Jaedong 3-0 and Flash 3-1. Beating Jaedong 3-0 in a bo5 in 2008 was a ridiculous feat.
Later on he fell into somewhat of a slump, but remained a regular in proleague (unlike b-teamers like MC). However he was to some extent overshadowed by flash and never really recovered his 2008 form. At the end of 2010 he announced his retirement.
He is likely the strongest bw player to switch over if he will compete professionally. Of course Nada, Boxer and July are more accomplished, but in modern BW forgg was much better than such players.
Also he was famous for his timing attacks (which caused the nicknames you see people call him in this thread).
Some people seem to downplay forgg's recent skill a bit so some comparison to current sc2 players is needed. To be fielded regularly in the proleague (BW teamleague) you had to be quite good.
The following is the win-loss (ratio) statistics for some of the current sc2 stars and forgg.
In the 2009-2010 proleague: MC (Iron): 0-2 (0%) Sangho: 3-7 (30%) MVP: 5-12 (29.4%) forgg: 10-10 (50%) Nestea (zergbong): 0-0 (not fielded) Puma: 3-9 (25%)
In the 2008-2009 proleague: MC (Iron): 1-2 (33.3%) Sangho: 23-15 (60.5%) MVP: 5-15 (25%) Nestea (zergbong): 0-1 (0%) forgg: 14-10 (58.3%) Puma: 1-6 (14.3%)
Individual league stats are not really reliable as when you get far you play better players and total stats are not better as "bad" players compete in the minor leagues which are not as good.
I wouldn't call it surprising that he would play SC2, nor that he would be very good. The real question is why he hasn't joined a team, or whether he intends to.
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best (skill-wise) ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
On July 16 2011 01:12 pingy[wen] wrote: i'm sure a lot of sc1 pros/former pros play sc2 casually on the ladder. wont freak out till he plays competitively.
I wouldn't be surprised either, but we're talking about a player in the top 20 GM in Korea with over a thousand games played. Pretty difficult to say this person is playing casually.
It seems a little weird that he'd respond to the ID "fOrGG" since he hadn't used it in around four years. Unless he's aware of how the foreign community referred to him, of course.
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
Thanks for the background Not suprising he plays Terran now in sc2 perhaps?
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
NaDa? BoxeR? Julyzerg? ;;. fOrGG is my second favourite Terran player ever, behind NaDa/Midas tie, but he's definately not the most accomplished ex-bw player to transition to SC2. Although his MSL win was quite impressive, with wins over iloveoov, kal, flash, and Jaedong.
I'd expect him to play protoss really. If you ask me their timing attacks are deadlier than terrans. In either case he'll do well if he does decide to go pro.
Beat Jaedong in an MSL final 3-0. Trained with Flash in KtRolster as the second best terran on the team, and arguably the second best player on the team for a while.
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
Uh i disagree with this -.-, Ya he won the a msl but thats basically it after that. He really wasent all that good after that
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
NaDa? BoxeR? Julyzerg? ;;. fOrGG is my second favourite Terran player ever, behind NaDa/Midas tie, but he's definately not the most accomplished ex-bw player to transition to SC2. Although his MSL win was quite impressive, with wins over iloveoov, kal, flash, and Jaedong.
I'm speaking skill-level wise relative to today. If fOrGG were to play nada, boxer, july, etc, etc right before retirement he would have steam rolled through them, no question about it.
In fact, if you were to see fOrGG vs MC or Bomber in the brood war days in a best of X, I'm quite confident it would be pure rape-age.
On July 16 2011 01:18 FiWiFaKi wrote: If anyone doesnt know who ForGG is...
Beat Jaedong in an MSL final 3-0. Trained with Flash in KtRolster as the second best terran on the team, and arguably the second best player on the team for a while.
Ahh..I keep thinking this is the guy who built 50 gateways against nada and lost :D..thats foru right?
On July 16 2011 01:18 FiWiFaKi wrote: If anyone doesnt know who ForGG is...
Beat Jaedong in an MSL final 3-0. Trained with Flash in KtRolster as the second best terran on the team, and arguably the second best player on the team for a while.
And he's got the second-manliest jawline in BW (behind Reach).
This is just a whole lot of speculation. Even if he did start playing SC2, he might not want to play competitively. I'm sure any BW pro can pick up SC2 and get to GM without any effort at all. It might be what they do with their downtime. It wouldn't surprise me if sAviOr was secretly playing SC2.
On July 16 2011 01:19 EliteReplay wrote: Huk should give this replay to the community... ggooggo
^^ Indeed Man o man, ForGG in Sc2? A lot of pros have transitioned, hope he plays in GSL and gets picked up by a team. He is such a nerdballer as tasteless would say
On July 16 2011 01:18 FiWiFaKi wrote: If anyone doesnt know who ForGG is...
Beat Jaedong in an MSL final 3-0. Trained with Flash in KtRolster as the second best terran on the team, and arguably the second best player on the team for a while.
Ahh..I keep thinking this is the guy who built 50 gateways against nada and lost :D..thats foru right?
If someone could find this game... I have no clue :s
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
NaDa? BoxeR? Julyzerg? ;;. fOrGG is my second favourite Terran player ever, behind NaDa/Midas tie, but he's definately not the most accomplished ex-bw player to transition to SC2. Although his MSL win was quite impressive, with wins over iloveoov, kal, flash, and Jaedong.
I'm speaking skill-level wise relative to today. If fOrGG were to play nada, boxer, july, etc, etc right before retirement he would have steam rolled through them, no question about it.
In fact, if you were to see fOrGG vs MC or Bomber in the brood war days in a best of X, I'm quite confident it would be pure rape-age.
You should probably edit your first post accordingly, as it's going to derail the thread because many people have already misunderstood it.
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
NaDa? BoxeR? Julyzerg? ;;. fOrGG is my second favourite Terran player ever, behind NaDa/Midas tie, but he's definately not the most accomplished ex-bw player to transition to SC2. Although his MSL win was quite impressive, with wins over iloveoov, kal, flash, and Jaedong.
I'm speaking skill-level wise relative to today. If fOrGG were to play nada, boxer, july, etc, etc right before retirement he would have steam rolled through them, no question about it.
In fact, if you were to see fOrGG vs MC or Bomber in the brood war days in a best of X, I'm quite confident it would be pure rape-age.
Since when does "Most Accomplished" mean "At the current moment in the best shape." He would be far, far from the most accomplished ex-BW.
Ya, he's far from the most accomplished BW player to switch (if it really is him and all), but he's definitely the one with the highest skill level in absolute terms.
On July 16 2011 01:24 Holgerius wrote: He should go pro. I'd love to see him play again. Kid was really good in his prime, going 6-1 against Flash and JD to win the MSL.
Do it Forgg, do it!
nestea should leave IM so that forgg,yellow and nestea can form a new team under KT's sponsorship.
Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
ForGG? Used to be so sick back in the day... but after his sick MSL run, he kinda fell off =(
I think if he qualified for the GSL he'd do very well. Winning an MSL finals in front of throusands of fans, compared to the tiny arena of the GSL... nerves probably won't be too much of an issue.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
Now pull up the stats for MC/Nestea...ect
Yeah I know they were horrendous. Im just saying that ForGG wasn’t exactly S-class material.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
SC2 Terran would definitely suit his play style. It's like he designed them himself.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
Now pull up the stats for MC/Nestea...ect
Yeah I know they were horrendous. Im just saying that ForGG wasn’t exactly S-class material.
He was at least A-class, though; S-class would be a lot to expect, right? That's basically Flash/Jaedong/Bisu. He was an A-team player, and he could beat S-class players on a good day.
Interesting. I always kind of liked fOrGG. His series against Kal in the Arena MSL is an epic series. I suggest watching it if you have never heard of the guy. :>
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
Now pull up the stats for MC/Nestea...ect
Yeah I know they were horrendous. Im just saying that ForGG wasn’t exactly S-class material.
Nonetheless he was a top player capable of maintaining a decent record. To even be send out in proleague you need to be quite good.
To put it into perspective MVP is often claimed to be the ex-BW that was the best when he left for SC2, but his win rate was 28.9% in proleague. Even in his "slump" (2009-retirement) forgg maintained 45% winrate.
Current top ex-BW sc2 players were either B-teamers, barely A-teamers, or old legends. I can't think of any current sc2 player that could post >35% winrate in 2009-2010 proleague. Most weren't even fielded.
On July 16 2011 01:29 enecateReAP wrote: Looking forward to see if he goes pro, it would be awesome to see how he achieves. Especially since a lot of guys have been arguing weather ex-BW top BW players would be able to compete. :')
While he is a Starleague-winner, he can hardly be classed as a top player. At least he had over 50 % win rate (52.67%), but he was doing quite poorly before he retired. I think SC2 would suit his play style though.
Now pull up the stats for MC/Nestea...ect
Yeah I know they were horrendous. Im just saying that ForGG wasn’t exactly S-class material.
He was at least A-class, though; S-class would be a lot to expect, right? That's basically Flash/Jaedong/Bisu. He was an A-team player, and he could beat S-class players on a good day.
True. Unless his opponent was named Bisu. But yeah he was absolutely a solid player although many (me included) expected more from him after Arena MSL
forgg played like god for one season and dropped off the radar after that. The only reason he was considered 2nd best terran in KT was cause there were no other terrans besides flash. id put him as a class A player for 2009 but for most of 2010 he wasnt really that great.
I'd love to see him return to pro gaming. I hope it's him and that he decides to start playing SC2 professionally, it's going to be very interesting to see how he performs, you know, with all the discussion around ex-BW pros and all that.
I can't believe people are down-playing his accomplishments in BW. To be consistently fielded by a team like KT is a big deal. Throw in an MSL win and I'd say this would the biggest ex-BW transfer to SC2 even if he was slumping for a year.
Bwahaha, he banged his head into the ceiling when he was going out of the booth after smashing JD. XD
That entire series vs Kal was awesome. But their best game was the one on Tiamat where Forgg went for a Bio+Tank timing. XD Now that was an awesome game.
Timing attack terran definitely found the right game to play lol. In contrast to BoxeR, July etc forGG was actually good at modern BW. He should own people if he goes pro.
On July 16 2011 01:16 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: It seems a little weird that he'd respond to the ID "fOrGG" since he hadn't used it in around four years. Unless he's aware of how the foreign community referred to him, of course.
This is Starcraft not Star Wars, he doesn't have to hide his true identity from the Dark-side by posing as Ben Kenobi, not like Savior.
He never got close to his Arena MSL glory but he was still a solid A-teamer in one of the top teams. He was probably top 20 or close in the 2009-2010 season. Even made it to the Round of 8 in Bigfile MSL before losing to Flash.
I'm still a little annoyed he left KT so suddenly but gl to him if he decides to go pro in SC2.
Raptor aka ForGG is playing Sc2 since forever, i don't think he aim to be pro, he would have done it long time ago. I saw him against Huk since forever in his stream, he could have qualify for code A long time ago if he wanted to. I think he is just messing around in sc2.
The non stop 10 min battle is so epic! Edit:for those who want to skip trough the video the battle start at around 17 min
This makes me want to watch BW more. It is so much more epic than SC2. It's amazing how the players can constantly micro while still keeping their macro together (considering how much harder it is to macro in BW).
I wonder what ID he would actually use if he went pro. We all know him as forgg, but I believe that he was known as Never for the last few years of his career.
On July 16 2011 03:39 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I wonder what ID he would actually use if he went pro. We all know him as forgg, but I believe that he was known as Never for the last few years of his career.
On July 16 2011 03:39 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I wonder what ID he would actually use if he went pro. We all know him as forgg, but I believe that he was known as Never for the last few years of his career.
On July 16 2011 03:39 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I wonder what ID he would actually use if he went pro. We all know him as forgg, but I believe that he was known as Never for the last few years of his career.
nevergg?
I believe that nick is reserved for Fantasy if he ever switches.
I doubt this is ForGG . ForGG wouldn't leave KT when KT needed him the most just to start playing SC2 in secrecy . Since the account was created right after he retired i doubt it would be him .
On July 16 2011 01:18 FiWiFaKi wrote: If anyone doesnt know who ForGG is...
Beat Jaedong in an MSL final 3-0. Trained with Flash in KtRolster as the second best terran on the team, and arguably the second best player on the team for a while.
Ahh..I keep thinking this is the guy who built 50 gateways against nada and lost :D..thats foru right?
If someone could find this game... I have no clue :s
fOrGG's playstyle (timing attacker) is a pretty good fit for SC2 once he learns the nuances, counters, in-ands-outs, etc. of the game. It'll be interesting to see (if it really is him) what kind of timings he'll bring into the game
On July 16 2011 04:12 raga4ka wrote: I doubt this is ForGG . ForGG wouldn't leave KT when KT needed him the most just to start playing SC2 in secrecy . Since the account was created right after he retired i doubt it would be him .
Yeah, and he left at a weird time. Before retirement, he was in the most recent MSL Ro8, and was seeded into his Ro32 group when he retired. He also made a recent OSL Ro8, proving his skill was still very high - I don't know how people can downplay this guy's 2010 accomplishments. When he left, I seem to recall him saying it was not for SC2.
But it could still be him. He has not tried to be pro in SC2, after all. This could just be his very active hobby. Though I don't know why he doesn't stay teamless and simply play in some online tournies for cash - I don't think KT would be upset unless he actually joins a team.
On July 16 2011 01:16 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: It seems a little weird that he'd respond to the ID "fOrGG" since he hadn't used it in around four years. Unless he's aware of how the foreign community referred to him, of course.
What do you mean its weird? If you called Jinro FrozenArbiter its not like he'd be like "Wtf whos dat?" or called Tyler Nony.
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
Well when he retired in BW pretty much everyone thought he was going to move to SC2 so it's not that big of a surprise but it's still making me "wiggly and jiggly".
On July 16 2011 03:39 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I wonder what ID he would actually use if he went pro. We all know him as forgg, but I believe that he was known as Never for the last few years of his career.
nevergg?
I believe that nick is reserved for Fantasy if he ever switches.
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
You're right, I skipped out on them because they weren't very active, sorry.
In terms of absolute skill, ForGG will probably be the best ex-BW pro in SC2.
No, he wasn't S-Class but he was clearly an A-class player and you can barely say that about MVP. From 2008-his retirement, ForGG was something like 57% and even his 2010 wasn't that bad. His final Proleague got ugly, but if you look at his PL and MSL performances from earlier in the year, he was still an above average player.
I'm so surprised that Sangho actually had a better PL record than forgg in the last proleague season they played. Still, forgg was a much better player overall.
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
On July 16 2011 01:16 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: It seems a little weird that he'd respond to the ID "fOrGG" since he hadn't used it in around four years. Unless he's aware of how the foreign community referred to him, of course.
What do you mean its weird? If you called Jinro FrozenArbiter its not like he'd be like "Wtf whos dat?" or called Tyler Nony.
I meant that he barely ever used that ID. Even in his games from 2006, he used the ID Never_V_. He had a necklace that said Never, and his Korean fans used "Never_V_" in their cheerfuls and other fan art for years. I don't think he's even ever used "fOrGG" in a televised game.
Korean progamers are known and called by their real names by their fans and the commentators, and for some gamers, their in-game IDs are almost meaningless (HoGiL being "hite zerg", for example) because they aren't even considered nicknames.
Aside from that, most of the progamers are unaware of any attention they receive from foreigners, who have the otherwise strange practice of knowing and referring to progamers by their game IDs for simplicity. In cases like these, those IDs are even more than a little obsolete. For someone that has either been called Park Ji Soo or Never_V_ or, hell, Time Attacker, by everyone he has ever known for the last four or five years, I thought it would at least give them a little pause.
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
You're right, I skipped out on them because they weren't very active, sorry.
July and Nada were both B-teamers at the time of their switch. NaDa made occasional appearances on the A-time, but rarely. July never did. SangHo was an incredibly mediocre A-teamer much like MVP, but an A-teamer nonetheless.
If there's one game that seems absolutely perfect for someone named "The Timing Attacker," it's SC2. If this is him then all the luck in the world, it hurt KT for him to suddenly retire but I wish him the best.
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
He said A-teamer.
So are july nada ans sangho considered s class or what?
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
He said A-teamer.
So are july nada ans sangho considered s class or what?
Neither July nor Nada were A-team anymore at the time of their switch. In fact, July was pretty damn bad at the game by the time he switched. NaDa made very rare appearances in proleague but was not an A-teamer (someone who gets regular proleague time, maybe not ever week, but say at least once very 3 matches).
On July 16 2011 05:38 King of Kings wrote: Who the fuck is "fOrGG"
The 2nd bw A-teamer (after immvp) to join sc2. Assuming he joins of course.
July, NaDa, SangHo. That's not even all of them. MVP was most active of them but definately not the only one. Also SangHo was active too. He just was on a small pause because of the scandal (he wasn't involved but it wasn't clear from the beginning)
He said A-teamer.
So are july nada ans sangho considered s class or what?
Neither July nor Nada were A-team anymore at the time of their switch. In fact, July was pretty damn bad at the game by the time he switched. NaDa made very rare appearances in proleague but was not an A-teamer (someone who gets regular proleague time, maybe not ever week, but say at least once very 3 matches).
On July 16 2011 01:58 Mazer wrote: I can't believe people are down-playing his accomplishments in BW. To be consistently fielded by a team like KT is a big deal. Throw in an MSL win and I'd say this would the biggest ex-BW transfer to SC2 even if he was slumping for a year.
This.
Why are people downplaying ForGG? He actually improved quite a bit during the time he was in KT. He did NOT just fall off after his MSL win. He went to the Ro8 in both Korean Air OSL and BigFile MSL, going 2-1 v Kal and 0-3 v his teammate Flash respectively (and at that time everyone was getting 3-0'ed by Flash.)
I still believe to this day that if ForGG had gotten a little luckier in that 3rd set against Kal he would have easily been a big favorite to beat Effort in the Ro4 and have added a silver OSL medal to his collection.
Compare that to MVP, Nestea or Iron? ForGG even not counting that fantastic MSL is miles ahead of any of those guys in terms of accomplishment and actual skill.
I feel kinda iffy about this. He announced his retirement from progaming just to play sc2 competitively? I wish he could've just say that he would be transferring instead of leaving like that.
I dunno if anyone else feels this way but it feels like a slap in the face to BW fans.
On July 16 2011 07:34 K3Nyy wrote: I feel kinda iffy about this. He announced his retirement from progaming just to play sc2 competitively? I wish he could've just say that he would be transferring instead of leaving like that.
I dunno if anyone else feels this way but it feels like a slap in the face to BW fans.
I doubt playing on SCII KR ladder can be deemed as "playing competitively" he probably plays this as a on the side hobby. There is no 100% guarantee that hes going to go pro.
Forgg was pretty good at Broodwar, he was one of the best terran in the circuit, slightly behind Sea, but as good as Light. I was pretty disappointed when he left KT. Mixed feelings about seeing him play SC2,
On July 16 2011 07:02 IntoTheEmo wrote: Wow, major sellout if this is true, he abandoned KT right when they needed him most.
LoL, I'm sure he made "a little bit" more money playing BW on KT than playing SC2 without a proteam. How is he a sellout ROFL?
Erm, wouldn't you feel for KT too if you had watched them struggle during the last two rounds of PL? Especially with Violet's condition too?
If you recall, he left shortly after the game against OZ in WL, right in the middle of the round. You'd assume that he'd have something major come up to retire immediately like that. It's kinda disappointing if he invested all that time into playing SC2 so soon after retiring. Though I guess it's been a while.
Either way, I can't help but think of how abruptly he just announced his retirement and leaving KT without their 2nd Terran midway through the round.
Edit: K3Nny pretty much has the same sort of opinion as mine I guess.
intotheemo, people dont just quit all the sudden. most likely the team knew he would be retiring from bw weeks in advance. the fact that kt went into a mini slump as he was retiring is nothing but bad coincidence.
On July 16 2011 07:02 IntoTheEmo wrote: Wow, major sellout if this is true, he abandoned KT right when they needed him most.
LoL, I'm sure he made "a little bit" more money playing BW on KT than playing SC2 without a proteam. How is he a sellout ROFL?
Erm, wouldn't you feel for KT too if you had watched them struggle during the last two rounds of PL? Especially with Violet's condition too?
If you recall, he left shortly after the game against OZ in WL, right in the middle of the round. You'd assume that he'd have something major come up to retire immediately like that. It's kinda disappointing if he invested all that time into playing SC2 so soon after retiring. Though I guess it's been a while.
Either way, I can't help but think of how abruptly he just announced his retirement and leaving KT without their 2nd Terran midway through the round.
Edit: K3Nny pretty much has the same sort of opinion as mine I guess.
He was performing poorly, he's not a sellout (by any definition you could possibly think of), and he's not playing on a team, thus you really have no argument here...
Invested all that time into SC2? He can do whatever the hell he wants with his freetime. Would he be a sellout if he started playing poker instead? Sheesh.
On July 16 2011 07:33 Skullflower wrote: Wow, this is super awesome if it's true. My dream is to see Effort play SC2 but I doubt that will ever happen..
He is back with CJ so its going to be pretty hard to seem him in SC2. Maybe when he is old and done with BW lol but yeah watch him on top of his game playing SC2 seems rather difficult to me. And Im glad, I hope he helps CJ a lot next year
Hoooooly crap, perhaps this is what happens when quite good (as in comparison to Boxer, July, Nada, etc. who were very good but were obviously not up to par by the time they retired) SC1 progamers come to SC2 :o
On July 16 2011 07:33 Skullflower wrote: Wow, this is super awesome if it's true. My dream is to see Effort play SC2 but I doubt that will ever happen..
He is back with CJ so its going to be pretty hard to seem him in SC2. Maybe when he is old and done with BW lol but yeah watch him on top of his game playing SC2 seems rather difficult to me. And Im glad, I hope he helps CJ a lot next year
On July 16 2011 07:58 PeterHuynh wrote: how many players were better than forgg at bw when he switched or currently today?
It's hard to say exactly. You could just look up his kespa rank at time of retirement, but this is not the most accurate measure of skill. The thing is, BW players can be split into s, a, b, etc. the same as sc2 (not coincidentally). However, BW, having been around so much longer, had a long time to develop and allow differentiation. The code B players in sc2 are often very strong and can easily take games off gsl champions. This really isn't the case in BW. The difference between the B team and S class starleague winners is huge. Along these lines, forgg's performance in BW was around the level of say clide. He was a consistent player that could take games off anyone and would be favored against many. Unlike clide, forgg won his one starleague with a phenomenal run through jaedong and flash. The general opinion was that forgg had a terrific sense of timing and was able to prepare for specific opponents very well, but he did not have the raw skill of the S class players.
For anyone wondering about calling Nada an a-teamer, here are the relevant stats: Nada TLDP The merit of the last games depend on the playoff situation, but anyway he won his last three. But note that he didnt get to play in the playoffs against MBC and SKT.
fOrGG's switch isn't exactly news. Ret(he was in Korea at that time) said a few months ago he switched on State Of The Game. About wether it is Raptor or not - no idea.
On July 16 2011 07:58 PeterHuynh wrote: how many players were better than forgg at bw when he switched or currently today?
It's hard to say exactly. You could just look up his kespa rank at time of retirement, but this is not the most accurate measure of skill. The thing is, BW players can be split into s, a, b, etc. the same as sc2 (not coincidentally). However, BW, having been around so much longer, had a long time to develop and allow differentiation. The code B players in sc2 are often very strong and can easily take games off gsl champions. This really isn't the case in BW. The difference between the B team and S class starleague winners is huge. Along these lines, forgg's performance in BW was around the level of say clide. He was a consistent player that could take games off anyone and would be favored against many. Unlike clide, forgg won his one starleague with a phenomenal run through jaedong and flash. The general opinion was that forgg had a terrific sense of timing and was able to prepare for specific opponents very well, but he did not have the raw skill of the S class players.
Bottom line is if forgg is actually gonna switch to pro sc2, he'll be the most raw skilled bw player to transition over since immvp. It's exciting to see a teamers transition.
To help settle the matter of "who was the most skilled bw player to switch to SC2" here's the Kespa ranking of several notable players at the time of their last played bw match.
It must be said that Kespa is a flawed ranking because of the disproportionate weight it puts on individual league success and gives points for games played up to a year ago, which is an eternity in progaming. At the end of his career forgg was in no way the 16th best brood war player. Nonetheless since there is no monthly ELO list Kespa ranking is the best indicator available for people who don't actively follow brood war.
At the present time, and throughout the past year (at least, probably even 2 years), ForGG would be considered the highest skill level BW player out of anyone who has switched to SC2 so far, just to clarify for people who don't know, or are downplaying how good he actually was at BW.
Players like Nada and July were definitely better during their prime, but when considering the past couple years of BW, ForGG was most definitely the best of any player to switch so far.
On July 16 2011 08:44 red4ce wrote: To help settle the matter of "who was the most skilled bw player to switch to SC2" here's the Kespa ranking of several notable players at the time of their last played bw match.
It must be said that Kespa is a flawed ranking because of the disproportionate weight it puts on individual league success and gives points for games played up to a year ago, which is an eternity in progaming. At the end of his career forgg was in no way the 16th best brood war player. Nonetheless since there is no monthly ELO list Kespa ranking is the best indicator available.
Compared to the others that switched from BW, he is definitely the most skilled player to switch. Though his performance at the end weren't that good. ><"
On July 16 2011 08:44 red4ce wrote: To help settle the matter of "who was the most skilled bw player to switch to SC2" here's the Kespa ranking of several notable players at the time of their last played bw match.
It must be said that Kespa is a flawed ranking because of the disproportionate weight it puts on individual league success and gives points for games played up to a year ago, which is an eternity in progaming. At the end of his career forgg was in no way the 16th best brood war player. Nonetheless since there is no monthly ELO list Kespa ranking is the best indicator available.
Compared to the others that switched from BW, he is definitely the most skilled player to switch. Though his performance at the end weren't that good. ><"
That's how it always is and always will be, BW players at their prime winning a lot will not switch because the money is better if you're winning.
On July 16 2011 07:58 PeterHuynh wrote: how many players were better than forgg at bw when he switched or currently today?
It's hard to say exactly. You could just look up his kespa rank at time of retirement, but this is not the most accurate measure of skill. The thing is, BW players can be split into s, a, b, etc. the same as sc2 (not coincidentally). However, BW, having been around so much longer, had a long time to develop and allow differentiation. The code B players in sc2 are often very strong and can easily take games off gsl champions. This really isn't the case in BW. The difference between the B team and S class starleague winners is huge. Along these lines, forgg's performance in BW was around the level of say clide. He was a consistent player that could take games off anyone and would be favored against many. Unlike clide, forgg won his one starleague with a phenomenal run through jaedong and flash. The general opinion was that forgg had a terrific sense of timing and was able to prepare for specific opponents very well, but he did not have the raw skill of the S class players.
To my own understanding:
The only S-class players in the past two years are TBLS: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. There are some almost S-class players during that time including Fantasy, Kal, Calm, and possibly Luxury, Jangbi, Sea and Leta.
S-class in BW is literally the very top. The BW equivalent of the "Code S" of SC2 would be S-Class, A-Class and even B-Class (e.g. Tester, Fruitdealer, and other anomalies). In BW, Forgg would have been considered A-Class when not in a slump. MVP, MC, PuMa would be considered low B-Class, and SangHo would be considered high B-Class.
Wait, Puma is the same Puma from BW? If I remember right, he was the one that knocked out Nal_rA on his last SL attempt before military service right? Hope he loses every match now xD
On July 16 2011 09:55 Toadily wrote: Wait, Puma is the same Puma from BW? If I remember right, he was the one that knocked out Nal_rA on his last SL attempt before military service right? Hope he loses every match now xD
It's the same Puma that helped Flash, Stork, and some of the other pros train
On July 16 2011 08:28 blabber wrote: well the fact that he's playing terran should make his rise to the top a lot easier
Seriously, I thought we were passed this kind of BS?
forGG can play random can be a top level SC2 player, people are underestimating how good BW A-teamers are.
I thought we were passed this also?
If your logic stood, players like SangHo and MVP would almost never lose to Polt (WC3 semi-pro), MKP (B-teamer) and MC (1-9 BW career). He was a near A-teamer towards the end of his career.
On July 16 2011 08:28 blabber wrote: well the fact that he's playing terran should make his rise to the top a lot easier
Seriously, I thought we were passed this kind of BS?
forGG can play random can be a top level SC2 player, people are underestimating how good BW A-teamers are.
I thought we were passed this also?
If your logic stood, players like SangHo and MVP would almost never lose to Polt (WC3 semi-pro), MKP (B-teamer) and MC (1-9 BW career). He was a near A-teamer towards the end of his career.
Im hoping this guy would try and play for a team and in the GSL, I would want to see how a real A-Teamer pro could do in sc2 so all this debate about how bw players would dominate or wouldn't dominate can finally come end
On July 16 2011 10:02 PeterHuynh wrote: Im hoping this guy would try and play for a team and in the GSL, I would want to see how a real A-Teamer pro could do in sc2 so all this debate about how bw players would dominate or wouldn't dominate can finally come end
No one said anything about bw players dominating. We said TLBS will dominate, not just any old bw palyer.
On July 16 2011 08:28 blabber wrote: well the fact that he's playing terran should make his rise to the top a lot easier
Seriously, I thought we were passed this kind of BS?
forGG can play random can be a top level SC2 player, people are underestimating how good BW A-teamers are.
I thought we were passed this also?
If your logic stood, players like SangHo and MVP would almost never lose to Polt (WC3 semi-pro), MKP (B-teamer) and MC (1-9 BW career). He was a near A-teamer towards the end of his career.
Aren't MVP and SangHo top sc2 players?
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
On July 16 2011 10:02 PeterHuynh wrote: Im hoping this guy would try and play for a team and in the GSL, I would want to see how a real A-Teamer pro could do in sc2 so all this debate about how bw players would dominate or wouldn't dominate can finally come end
No one said anything about bw players dominating. We said TLBS will dominate, not just any old bw palyer.
im pretty sure in the elephant article theres 150 pages of people saying atleast real A-Teamers would dominate excluding TBLS
On July 16 2011 08:28 blabber wrote: well the fact that he's playing terran should make his rise to the top a lot easier
Seriously, I thought we were passed this kind of BS?
forGG can play random can be a top level SC2 player, people are underestimating how good BW A-teamers are.
I thought we were passed this also?
If your logic stood, players like SangHo and MVP would almost never lose to Polt (WC3 semi-pro), MKP (B-teamer) and MC (1-9 BW career). He was a near A-teamer towards the end of his career.
Aren't MVP and SangHo top sc2 players?
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
If he takes the game seriously and puts in a comparable amount of practice as he did in BW there is no doubt in my mind he will be among the top players.
I wish he could be invited to foreign tournaments... that would be a good way to motivate the SC:BW pro who are wondering whether or not they should transition...
this guy has ruined so many of my liquidbets pulling off unexpected wins over the best of the best and sc2 terran is perfectly designed for his style of play if he takes it serious and attempts to go pro I wouldn't be the least surprised to see him beat anyone/everyone.
Um, you guys realize that ForGG hasn't used the "ForGG" handle for at least 4-5 years, not even during his Arena MSL run.
In fact, I can't even find any VODs of him using ForGG, but rather he seems to have always used "Never" or his Korean name. Also I doubt he can speak english either
On July 16 2011 10:28 ArvickHero wrote: Um, you guys realize that ForGG hasn't used the "ForGG" handle for at least 4-5 years, not even during his Arena MSL run.
In fact, I can't even find any VODs of him using ForGG, but rather he seems to have always used "Never" or his Korean name. Also I doubt he can speak english either
Yup, he hasn't used ForGG in forever. Everytime I used to watch him play it was "Never".
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
On July 16 2011 08:28 blabber wrote: well the fact that he's playing terran should make his rise to the top a lot easier
Seriously, I thought we were passed this kind of BS?
forGG can play random can be a top level SC2 player, people are underestimating how good BW A-teamers are.
I thought we were passed this also?
If your logic stood, players like SangHo and MVP would almost never lose to Polt (WC3 semi-pro), MKP (B-teamer) and MC (1-9 BW career). He was a near A-teamer towards the end of his career.
You need to learn MUCH MORE about the BW scene. There is a very wide gap in A-team level players, MVP is probably the best current A-team player to switch and he's a mediocre Terran in BW at best. Nada, Boxer, Yellow and July, while still solid, cannot compete with the newest A-team players.
forGG for a time was THE player, beating both Jaedong and Flash in BoX matches (who are the two best players in the history of SC). Granted he's fallen off since then however he's still young and could easily stomp faces in SC2.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
Talking to the New Star HoSeo players in Sans stream, they all knew who Raptor was and said that he was a big BW player and was playing with them but didnt want people to know who he was.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
On July 16 2011 10:28 ArvickHero wrote: Um, you guys realize that ForGG hasn't used the "ForGG" handle for at least 4-5 years, not even during his Arena MSL run.
In fact, I can't even find any VODs of him using ForGG, but rather he seems to have always used "Never" or his Korean name. Also I doubt he can speak english either
If I remember correctly, NeverGG said he speaks English quite well (or at least passable - along with FBH).
Anyway I'm pretty excited if the King of Timing Attacks switched. He was pretty awesome in BW, sniping Zergs (including JD, which was my last good memory of him). Of course, he got crushed by macro-Protoss like best but that's nothing to be ashamed of.
On July 16 2011 12:06 HitMonkie wrote: If forGG is Raptor and he does play professinal.
He might play for New Star HoSeo
Talking to the New Star HoSeo players in Sans stream, they all knew who Raptor was and said that he was a big BW player and was playing with them but didnt want people to know who he was.
On July 16 2011 12:06 HitMonkie wrote: If forGG is Raptor and he does play professinal.
He might play for New Star HoSeo
Talking to the New Star HoSeo players in Sans stream, they all knew who Raptor was and said that he was a big BW player and was playing with them but didnt want people to know who he was.
Would he really switch right now? He left BW at a pretty awkward time. It was the middle of the proleague season while he was still receiving decent playing time.
On July 16 2011 07:58 PeterHuynh wrote: how many players were better than forgg at bw when he switched or currently today?
It's hard to say exactly. You could just look up his kespa rank at time of retirement, but this is not the most accurate measure of skill. The thing is, BW players can be split into s, a, b, etc. the same as sc2 (not coincidentally). However, BW, having been around so much longer, had a long time to develop and allow differentiation. The code B players in sc2 are often very strong and can easily take games off gsl champions. This really isn't the case in BW. The difference between the B team and S class starleague winners is huge. Along these lines, forgg's performance in BW was around the level of say clide. He was a consistent player that could take games off anyone and would be favored against many. Unlike clide, forgg won his one starleague with a phenomenal run through jaedong and flash. The general opinion was that forgg had a terrific sense of timing and was able to prepare for specific opponents very well, but he did not have the raw skill of the S class players.
To my own understanding:
The only S-class players in the past two years are TBLS: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. There are some almost S-class players during that time including Fantasy, Kal, Calm, and possibly Luxury, Jangbi, Sea and Leta.
S-class in BW is literally the very top. The BW equivalent of the "Code S" of SC2 would be S-Class, A-Class and even B-Class (e.g. Tester, Fruitdealer, and other anomalies). In BW, Forgg would have been considered A-Class when not in a slump. MVP, MC, PuMa would be considered low B-Class, and SangHo would be considered high B-Class.
Yeah, the S, A, B of BW is not the same as codes in SC2. I was just saying it wasn't a coincidence because they take their name from that. By saying forgg was like clide, I was comparing their level of performance in their respective games, not trying to suggest he was S class in BW. Indeed, the classes in SC2 haven't really differentiated themselves to the point where code and class are the same thing at all.
I would pretty much agree that those 4 are the only ones to stay S class over recent times (stork and bisu have had questionable periods), but would include several other players in the almost S-class. Forgg, through most of his career was probably a little below that almost S-class level, but I can't forget that amazing title run. Seriously, crushing your way through Jaedong and Flash in relatively dominant series is practically unheard of.
i always liked him as a player, even when he slumped and i'm excited to see how well he does in SC2 - i wouldn't be surprised if he made it into Code S asap, that is if he takes it seriously.
On July 17 2011 14:46 Kiyo. wrote: He's been playing for a while now and hasn't tried qualifying yet. I don't see why he'd all of the sudden start trying to qualify now.
Pretty sure he's just training until he feels ready to make a debut. If he were at the qualifiers in person then I'm sure it'd be making headlines in sc2. It's not that he tried and failed yet, and it seems like he's playing it as more than just a hobby. Relative to most of the top players right now he's only played half that time, so maybe in a few months he'll feel ready.
If you think sc2 terrans make lots of marines wait till you watch this guy. He makes A LOT of fucking marines and a-moves them. I also feel he had a huge influence on Flash's tvz.
On July 17 2011 14:51 kNyTTyM wrote: If you think sc2 terrans make lots of marines wait till you watch this guy. He makes A LOT of fucking marines and a-moves them. I also feel he had a huge influence on Flash's tvz.
He definitely had a major influence on Flash's playstyle.
When Flash does do a timing attack, they are gorgeous and so well orchestrated it reminds me forcibly of fOrGG's timing attacks.
And i think either Flash/fOrGG said in a interview at one point that they really worked on breaking down TvZ together for a loooooong time.
I always though that forgg would be one of the strongest sc2 players if he ever switched over, merely because his style of play (timing attacks) would be very friendly to sc2, and he has very solid mechanics...and he's just fucking brilliant in finding very smart builds.
On July 16 2011 10:02 PeterHuynh wrote: Im hoping this guy would try and play for a team and in the GSL, I would want to see how a real A-Teamer pro could do in sc2 so all this debate about how bw players would dominate or wouldn't dominate can finally come end
No one said anything about bw players dominating. We said TLBS will dominate, not just any old bw palyer.
Most of the players dominating in the korean scene are ex BW pros so yes bw players are dominating .
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
He was never the creative monster that most other players were, but a very great executioner of strats, timings, and build orders. He will most likely be a force to recon with, but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong and those kids will dominate the game for a long time to come.
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
I highly doubt hes going to switch over, does no one recall why he retired in the first place? Had nothing to do with sc2 nor his career, it was family related obligations. I believe his mother was sick...? I doubt these things have cleared up so rapidly that merely ten days after his retirement he picked up starcraft2 and seriously considered, and began the project, of becoming a pro at that as well.
If it is him, hes a gamer, its just what he does. But hes focusing on his family right now.
edit: also how the hell did this guy end up in gold?
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
Really fucking excited for this. Knowing ForGG's playstyle he will definately pioneer some timing based play. I feel like solid timing pushes is the future of terran and if anyone can do it it's ForGG!
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
Well of the current sc1 pros that switched over he is the one that attained the highest skill level in sc1 so yeah he would definately become a top player if he wanted to. To expect anything less from a motivated forgg would be a joke.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
It would be awesome to see ForGG doing something again. Probablly just playing randomly rather than seriously competively though. Good luck to him in whatever he does whether it Esports related or not.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
I wouldn't expect much of Sangho. Look at the players that Sangho actually won against in BW. Beating one of the higher tier BW players was few and far between for him.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
Do you need any more solid correlation than the fact that most of the top pros in SC2 originally played BW? (Including MC and Nestea whom you said yourself are the two most consistent top-tier players in the game which I would agree with)
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
MMA's last 3 major tournaments are 2nd at WC(losing to Polt) winning MLG and then had a first round loss to a protoss. To me a slump requires more than one loss to actually be a slump.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S. .
Do you think MC is in a slump? He lost in group stages in GSL May and Ro64 Super Tournament - MVP lost in Ro32(I think)? I'm guessing not since he's been participating in tournaments outside Korea - but if you look at his results over the last few GSL seasons, other than the current one, then he wouldn't be considered "top-teir" either by your standards.
You can't really judge if a player is slumping or not due to the fact that losing 2 games means you don't get any playtime for a month - new GSTL helps with this obviously, although MVP and Nestea never need to be played by IM for their wins anyway.
On July 17 2011 17:07 bEwArE wrote: Placed into Gold, made me LOL
I'm thinking he bought the game, and the first thing he does is find 5 ladder matches, without reviewing the new units or hotkeys.
I think it was said in the FXOBoss piece but in the Korean ladder, you can't / don't skip leagues. You have to go up the ladder one rung at a time. So gold -> plat -> diamond -> master -> grandmaster. Its not like it is in North America where you do your placement matches and get placed into diamond.
FYI, his mmr should be pretty high if he's matching up with Huk and some Zenex members. So his placement isn't necessarily a reflection of his skill.
edit - here's the quote from FXOBoss's thread
Highlight: Watching the world cry at our FXOteam account being in platinum, whilst tgun and the likes are playing players in High masters and grandmasters. Players such as rainbow, slayers_legalmind, nuclearfOu, and of course NEXPuzzle. It showed to me, the world really doesn't know what matters in Starcraft 2. I hope this ads some insight.
Fact: We discovered that on Korea, you only get promoted league by league, IE Plat -> Diamond -> Masters -> GM. It also depended on the number of games you played, however I attributed that to a flattening of the MMR%. Optikzero was the first player to Masters from FXO. Grandmasters is not going to happen because its too active on Korean server.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
What do you consider success? Winning a GSL? Being in Code S? Every GSL winner (code a and s) besides Polt has a background in BW and almost every player in the GSL has a background in BW. If you can't see the correlation between BW and SC2 you aren't looking hard enough.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
You don't see a correlation between bw and sc2? Do you see wc3 players winning gsl's? (well i guess polt) You may get off the stage now.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
The Koreans sure have the consistency of beating foreigners. lol
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
You don't see a correlation between bw and sc2? Do you see wc3 players winning gsl's? (well i guess polt) You may get off the stage now.
Totally biased pool of players in South Korea. There is like 1 good Warcraft 3 player for 50 good BW players, it's quite logical that BW players are going to dominate.
That's like wondering why every single top Starcraft 2 players in China has a Warcraft 3 background.
You can see in Europe where there's a lot of players with both a starcraft and a warcraft 3 background that they are dominating the scene quite equally, Warcraft 3 having a slight lead (judging at the ratio who qualified for TSL).
I can't believe people are still arguing that there is no relationship between BW success and SC2 success. It is pretty clear that many of the skills do transfer over and pretty much every mid-high level BW pro that switched over has found success in SC2.
It's pretty clear that if a player of forgg's skill transferred to SC2 he would be very strong. Probably not bonjwa status, but he would certainly be one of the best SC2 players. Hell, just look at his ladder ranking. Now imagine how good he would be if he had a team to practice with and took this game 100% seriously.
Sorry to burst your bubble; but unlike the other pros who transferred over (sangho, mvp were the ones who were descent at best (i mean, mvp's alltime height in BW was knocking out baby and taking 1 game off flash, while I never really were around to follow Sangho's height so can't talk about that).
But, before his slump-into-retirement Park Ji-Soo were in dual ro8 in starleagues only to get knocked out by Kal (2nd or 3rd best toss last season) 2-1 in a very close series and getting demolished 3-0 by his teammate Flash (who won both of the leagues, mind you).
I think that fOrGG's retirement was simply due to his own frustration of not acheving anything and not performing as he would like to, so he probally won't have his mechanics (but then again, sc2 is less APM intensive). It's weird, because while he was known to make wacky and crazy timing attacks he actually had really damn good macro though his decision making was questionable at times. I doubt he is gonna perform to his "A-class bw potential" though it would make me happy seeing one of my favorite T's perform well :>
On July 18 2011 01:51 DoomsVille wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing that there is no relationship between BW success and SC2 success. It is pretty clear that many of the skills do transfer over and pretty much every mid-high level BW pro that switched over has found success in SC2.
It's pretty clear that if a player of forgg's skill transferred to SC2 he would be very strong. Probably not bonjwa status, but he would certainly be one of the best SC2 players. Hell, just look at his ladder ranking. Now imagine how good he would be if he had a team to practice with and took this game 100% seriously.
Nobody's denying that there's a correlation between BW success and Starcraft 2 success, but it's not a strict and exact causation.
In South Korea most of the gamers have a BW background so that's pretty logical that most of the players doing well for now have a BW background. In China it's the same thing with War3. And in Europe it's 50/50.
The best BW/War3 players are not the best SC2 players, they're not even the most likely to succeed. They are a lot of BW/War3 semi pro who are younger and pretty much as talented (such as thorzain, Naniwa, MC etc...).
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
What do you consider success? Winning a GSL? Being in Code S? Every GSL winner (code a and s) besides Polt has a background in BW and almost every player in the GSL has a background in BW. If you can't see the correlation between BW and SC2 you aren't looking hard enough.
The only correlation is that it seems to give the player a headstart. Nothing more. People used to laugh at Nestea because he had a terrible BW showing, commenting that his fame would soon fade when more decorated players would join the fray. When those players have come, however, they're the ones who flicker instead of shine.
You'd think that this coveted BW experience would give them some huge advantage over the competition, so the top 8 would always showcase the best that came from BW. This isn't the case. They don't show consistent results when the cards are down. You don't see trends where the only people to take out MVP, MC, Nestea, etc. are each other. Instead the competition is so cutthroat that these players only enjoy a marginally better chance at a run for the championship one season at a time.
I'm asking for evidence that BW results, and not simply pro experience, somehow translates into definitive domination of SC2. Until then, I retain my position that all we could expect from forgg in SC2 is that he would be seen in the GSL.
On July 18 2011 01:51 DoomsVille wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing that there is no relationship between BW success and SC2 success. It is pretty clear that many of the skills do transfer over and pretty much every mid-high level BW pro that switched over has found success in SC2.
It's pretty clear that if a player of forgg's skill transferred to SC2 he would be very strong. Probably not bonjwa status, but he would certainly be one of the best SC2 players. Hell, just look at his ladder ranking. Now imagine how good he would be if he had a team to practice with and took this game 100% seriously.
Nobody's denying that there's a correlation between BW success and Starcraft 2 success, but it's not a strict and exact causation.
In South Korea most of the gamers have a BW background so that's pretty logical that most of the players doing well for now have a BW background. In China it's the same thing with War3. And in Europe it's 50/50.
The best BW/War3 players are not the best SC2 players, they're not even the most likely to succeed. They are a lot of BW/War3 semi pro who are younger and pretty much as talented (such as thorzain, Naniwa, MC etc...).
Not causation, but rather common cause. The best players at SC2 are going to be the most talented and disciplined players with the necessary infrastructure (Korea). And the best players at SC:BW are going to be the same. Those who were talented and hard-working enough to have survived and succeeded in the BW Kespa system will have absolutely no trouble in SC2.
Also, on the topic of MC being too young in BW but 'just as talented'. + Show Spoiler +
Baby won his first televised game at 13 and is currently 14th ELO at the age of 16. I don't know how long we were supposed to wait before IrOn showed his stuff...
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
You don't see a correlation between bw and sc2? Do you see wc3 players winning gsl's? (well i guess polt) You may get off the stage now.
Totally biased pool of players in South Korea. There is like 1 good Warcraft 3 player for 50 good BW players, it's quite logical that BW players are going to dominate.
That's like wondering why every single top Starcraft 2 players in China has a Warcraft 3 background.
You can see in Europe where there's a lot of players with both a starcraft and a warcraft 3 background that they are dominating the scene quite equally, Warcraft 3 having a slight lead (judging at the ratio who qualified for TSL).
Here's an interesting point to make though : I don't care about the euro or american scene?
The best of the best are the bw players of korea. Whether or not wc3, or halo players dominate the euro and na scene doesn't matter to me because they get owned by the koreans anyway.
On July 18 2011 01:56 TeWy wrote: The best BW/War3 players are not the best SC2 players, they're not even the most likely to succeed. They are a lot of BW/War3 semi pro who are younger and pretty much as talented (such as thorzain, Naniwa, MC etc...).
But that also depends on motivation and practice.
FruitDealer and Tester are probably the most talented players still (even though they're not the most successful to switch), but it matters fuck all if you're going to just make a half-assed effort at it. Even mvp said his practice regime is pretty relaxed compared to BW.
Practice is everything obviously, but given the same amount of practice and commitment, I'm still leaning towards the better BW players being better in SC2 as well.
Wow, really? sweet Hope he takes up sc2, if MC and MVP could have so little success in BW yet so much in SC2, then why shouldn't more successful BW players be even more gosu at SC2?
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
Uh i disagree with this -.-, Ya he won the a msl but thats basically it after that. He really wasent all that good after that
Still better than MVP and way better than Iron and Zergbong though
And he had been using a different ID for years so I don't know how much proof this is
If fOrGG transitions, I think he will be arguably the best and most accomplished ex-broodwar player in SC2. To give some background to those not familiar in the BW scene, fOrGG won an MSL against Jaedong 3-0, considered to be the best zerg brood-war player bar-non (though on some pretty bullshit maps). Otherwise, he played solidly in proleague on Hwaseung Oz but when he transitioned to KT, his play severely declined until he recently retired.
Uh i disagree with this -.-, Ya he won the a msl but thats basically it after that. He really wasent all that good after that
Still better than MVP and way better than Iron and Zergbong though
And he had been using a different ID for years so I don't know how much proof this is
It's not like he doesn't remember his old ID though.
I suppose anyone can answer "right" really, but this isn't the only source for the rumour either.
BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
mvp's not successful, he had like under 40% televised winrate? the only reason he got any playing time was because stars had a fucking godawful terran lineup before they got really and purchased light. no one good has switched until forgg, he might've had a depressing run at the tail end of 2010 but before that he was doing okay in SPL and made it into individual leagues.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I think you don't know what you're talking about, but maybe that's just me.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
Im not sure which part of what he said seems like denail. Hes wrong in saying that BW success means nothing but 100% of BW a teamers arent going to switch and become SC2 A teamers. If you doubt this use other games as a reference. There have been lots of games where pro's switch from one game to a sequal and while many enjoy the same level of sucess quite a few have trouble adjusting to what is different.
Ah, I thought what you meant was the very top tier of players, which MVP and SangHo are not.
But nevertheless, they're different games, it's too early to make a judgment on where he'll be if he turns pro.
you are really writing MVP off after a slump this recent? hes the most dominant terran we have seen in sc2 thus far how can you consider him not even a PART of the "very top teir". maybe in his current slump he is no longer the best terran in the world but he is without a doubt one of them.
he's been slumping for quite a bit. Plus, not many people count the WC win as seriously as a regular GSL season. Imo, MVP probably like Nada; definitely good, but just under the top tier.
That's laughable.. any korean will tell you mvp is top tier.
Then "any Korean" would be wrong. There's a very interesting problem with SC2 right now in that it's lacking a great deal of consistency. Every 2-3 weeks, we have a new "top of the race," while one of the old leaders goes into some slump. Look at the runs of players like FruitDealer, MMA, MVP, and SC. All very impressive, but then get demolished by relative no-names causing a devastating fall. In fact, the major consistency we have is that some players who seem to be in perpetual slumps (zenio, fruitdealer, tester, etc.) can't seem to find the exit door from Code S.
Honestly, right now, "top tier" is such a loose term that it doesn't even really hold significant weight. The only players we can even say with certainty are "top tier" players would be Nestea and MC simply because they have won 2 titles each and continue to be relevant in meta-game modifications. Beyond those two players, however, the population is in such wild flux that ranking becomes so subjective that it's meaningless. You get this HUGE grey area that goes from Code S all the way down to Qualifiers, where people argue daily that some people who can't qualify for Code A could also take a Code S championship (and it's probably true).
Would forgg dominate the scene? I have no idea. However, we can at least assume that he would find mild success in it if he were to switch over, just like most other players with impressive RTS backgrounds.
so you don't follow broodwar basically
So, basically, you don't follow SC2. Show me some solid correlation between BW success and SC2 success and you can act like an elitist asshole all you want. Until sangho starts tearing up the scene, any speculation of the sort is wild nostalgia.
What do you consider success? Winning a GSL? Being in Code S? Every GSL winner (code a and s) besides Polt has a background in BW and almost every player in the GSL has a background in BW. If you can't see the correlation between BW and SC2 you aren't looking hard enough.
The only correlation is that it seems to give the player a headstart. Nothing more. People used to laugh at Nestea because he had a terrible BW showing, commenting that his fame would soon fade when more decorated players would join the fray. When those players have come, however, they're the ones who flicker instead of shine.
You'd think that this coveted BW experience would give them some huge advantage over the competition, so the top 8 would always showcase the best that came from BW. This isn't the case. They don't show consistent results when the cards are down. You don't see trends where the only people to take out MVP, MC, Nestea, etc. are each other. Instead the competition is so cutthroat that these players only enjoy a marginally better chance at a run for the championship one season at a time.
I'm asking for evidence that BW results, and not simply pro experience, somehow translates into definitive domination of SC2. Until then, I retain my position that all we could expect from forgg in SC2 is that he would be seen in the GSL.
Mechanics do transfer... many of them maintain very high apm compared to white people... nada still has very high apm compared to many and that never changed at all...
The training of 8-12 hours a day is still the same for many of them... so that's not really different...
Getting used to new units and different strategies might not since they're very much different...
but they do very well in NA tournaments... and other ones outside korea...and consistently being white people...but you'd prob think their opponents were terrible or so?
I wish people would stop arguing about the relevance of BW success to SC2. If it makes you feel bad, just consider it competitive rts success and SC2. It's the same way that people expect so much of moon.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
The way I understand it is such... Having success in BW doesn't immediately mean you'll be top class in SC2, unless you put in the work. That is what made BW players so good; how much work they put into the game. That is also what makes SC2 players so good. The perfect examples of this are Fruitdealer and Tester, who were relatively good at BW, but have reportedly started slacking off in SC2, and are therefore not showing as good results as players who did worse in BW.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
IM_Ready
IMBeSt
One could only hope.
Hell no, BeSt isn't joining the dark side. I shudder at the thought.
There's only one team for him to go to if he switches, everything else would be blasphemy.
On July 18 2011 05:56 ppshchik wrote: BW success mean nothing, IdrA has said in his stream that many former BW players who should supposedly perform better are slacking after being released from BW pro-teams which is Frutidealer's and Tester's case. Bomber was a EstrO B-teamer yet he defeated IMMVP in the Code A finals.
I'm sorry, but you're quite ill-informed in the matter and quite frankly, it just sounds like you're in some sort of denial.
The way I understand it is such... Having success in BW doesn't immediately mean you'll be top class in SC2, unless you put in the work. That is what made BW players so good; how much work they put into the game. That is also what makes SC2 players so good. The perfect examples of this are Fruitdealer and Tester, who were relatively good at BW, but have reportedly started slacking off in SC2, and are therefore not showing as good results as players who did worse in BW.
Yeah, this is very true.
Hard working players will ALWAYS beat (significantly) less hard working players in the long run. Always. They can have a background in Pong. In fact, if you look at Nani and Thorzain's games from over 7-8 months ago, they're actually... awful. But now they're top tier foreign players because of the work they put in.
That said, it's kind of natural to assume that players who are serious about it will also give their 100%, but at the same time has to be considered that a lot of BW players who make the switch are really burnt out from years of living in a team house and playing working insane hours. It's hard to be motivated and to keep doing the same thing after you switch, especially as a lot of the actual SC2 teams are very relaxed and don't push their players as hard.
So yeah, success depends on a lot of variables, and even BW players are still human. But if you could clone any A or S class BW player at his best condition and get him to SC2, I've no doubt in my mind that they would be dominant for their mechanics and multitasking alone.
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
On July 18 2011 08:06 whaty0uwant wrote: Will probably get picked up by a team.. my best guess would be IM. They usually get the players with the awesome ids.
IM_Ready
IMBeSt
One could only hope.
Hell no, BeSt isn't joining the dark side. I shudder at the thought.
There's only one team for him to go to if he switches, everything else would be blasphemy.
And the name "Best" is already quite tainted in the SC2 world...
This could be pretty exciting, Forgg would get to be one of the few decent players (of recent times) switching over to SC2 from BW. Forgg might start tearing it up if he actually chooses to!
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
So basically you post all the exceptions?
Normal A-Teamers generally get to the point where they might win a Star League between 18 and 21. Which is the age at which guys like MC and MVP switched to Sc2.
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
So basically you post all the exceptions?
Normal A-Teamers generally get to the point where they might win a Star League between 18 and 21. Which is the age at which guys like MC and MVP switched to Sc2.
That's true that most progamers peak at around 18-21. But the reason why BW B-teamers and some A-teamers left BW for SC2 at 16-18 is because they showed no promise or results at the game. They had no future in BW regardless of their age, so they followed the money and jumped ship (a good decision for them, obviously). The S-class players and A-teamers in BW today were extremely good at 16-18.
On July 18 2011 10:11 dRaW wrote: ForGGs skill rapidly declined over the years, I wouldn't say he would tear the scene up but he would be a formidable player (as sc2 =! sc:bw)
He's still better than everyone else that switched. Call a different game or whatever (it's really not), but SC2 would probably fit forgg's style more with all the 1-2 base timing attacks Terran can do.
Man can you guys stop arguing about pointless shit so I can find out if there's any updates on whether he's taking it seriously or not without having to trudge through 16 pages of inane hypotheticals based off evidently random data. The only people who give a crap about what any of you say are people who disagree with you.
On July 18 2011 09:43 lunchforthesky wrote: People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 16-18 years old. Very few BW pro's were great at that age.
The youngest age of TV win - BaBy (13 years, 2 months and 17 days) The oldest age of TV win - BoxeR (29 years, 5 months and 1 day)
The youngest OSL champion - Flash (15 years, 8 months and 10 days, Bacchus OSL 2008) The youngest MSL champion - Mind (16 years, 1 month and 14 days, GomTV 3 MSL 2007) The youngest player to win OSL silver - Fantasy (17 years and 4 months, Incruit OSL 2008) The youngest player to win MSL silver - Kal (17 years, 4 months and 19 days, GomTV4 MSL 2008) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Mouse - Flash (18 years, 2 months and 6 days, Korean Air Season 2 OSL 2010) The youngest player to achieve the Golden Badge - NaDa (18 years, 1 month and 29 days, Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003)
Lots of progamers have done extremely well and some even won MSL/OSL by the age of 16. Besides, the well known BW transfers like MC, Nestea, MVP are all fairly old. If you look at the ages of top players in SC:BW TLPD, they're all around MC's and MVP's age (if not younger).
So basically you post all the exceptions?
Normal A-Teamers generally get to the point where they might win a Star League between 18 and 21. Which is the age at which guys like MC and MVP switched to Sc2.
So infact, People forget that a large number of SC2 pro's quit Brood War when they were 19-25 years old. Most BW greats were already successful at that age. + Show Spoiler +
The BW->SC2 are actually surprisingly old (to me at least). I think the youngest one is Losira who is 19.
MVP as high level BW pro. I always love looking and oggling at people who are so obstinate to believe that Professional Brood War players are NOT the best RTS players in the world. That's some serious denail, and while they're not identical games, the mechanics, the decision making, the analysis, the deception and most importantly the mindset and the mind-games are perfectly translatable skills between SC1 and 2. We don't have good examples (yet) of how well a BW progamer who's actually 'good' by current standards (ok let's say recent individual leagues ro16 level) would do in SC2, but there's and undeniable correlation between being on a professional gaming team as a BW pro, and playing SC2 very well: Look at ALL the past GSL winners, and the most succesful SC2 players today (sorry guys foreigners don't quite compare yet), and it's damm hard to find any WITHOUT a pro BW background.
I have NO doubt that ForGG would do phenomenally in SC2 if he decided to dedicate himself to becoming a professional in that game, and I'd love to see him join Slayers if anything as that is the team most appealing to ex-BW progamers at the moment (sup Boxer, Yellow etc.). I do hope however that this doesn't start some sort of exodus from the current BW teams (who are loosing fanbase, blood and sponsorship daily), but I doubt that'll happen.
i don't see the purpose in discussing his star 2 merits if in fact this is forgg. He's high rank grandmaster on korea server above many other pro players. I think outside of tournament he's ended this stupid debate if he's good or not. If he goes pro is tbd.
On July 18 2011 10:51 stangstang wrote: IM is the only team not stacked with good/amazing terran players. good fit for him imo
Plenty of teams not stacked. ST only has Bomber (Virus is on the level of Happy/Yoda). TSL only has Puma (Clide is consistently mediocre)...and hell, as much as I'm a fan of Puma, I'd still pause a bit and wait for some actual GSL results before calling him one of the best Terrans in Korea. Zenex only has Byun (Hack has been winning some online tournaments + GSTL, but no GSL results = he can't count). HoSeo...who the fuck is even a good T on that team? MVP...Keen and Noblesse? LOL
I could go down the list, but the only teams that have a strong stable of Terrans are Slayers and oGs.
Of course, I think given his connections with IM, there's a large possibility there. Plus, it'll give MVP a nice fire under his ass to improve even further.
On a sidenote: MVP is still considered one of the best, if not the best, in Korea. Who did sC pick as the two scariest players he'd like to get out of the way in the July Code S group stages? Oh, that's right, MVP and MKP. That says it all right there, and plenty of the Prime guys (who communicate with the Chinese WE team) say the same.
On July 18 2011 11:15 King K. Rool wrote: Either way it must be ForGG.
If it is, then it is.
If it isn't, then he's the PRETENDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER and thus in fact must be ForGG anyways.
That. Was awesome.
I'm so pumped if this is actually fOrGG (lrn2caps noobs, god... ).
If anyone here hasn't seen his Arena MSL run... Go. Watch. The. VODs. Now.
His Ro8 Bo5 against Kal wasn't the best play, but damn it was one of the most exciting matches I ever watched live. His Semi-final match against Flash was somewhat disappointing on Flash's end, but still was an awesome series to watch. And then he absolutely rolled Jaedong in the finals. The maps were shit, but still - first player to beat Jaedong in an actual SL Bo5 (only Bo5 Jaedong had previously lost was vs. Rock in an OSC).
E: Just hope that he doesn't win a team-kill final again, and mysteriously break his arm...
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Flash's double armory build disagrees with you.
Quote From Me "built their strategy off of other's work"
Meaning that they surely advanced their strategies. They surely improved mechanics and timings and unit use. But they were able to add this because of information they gained by watching previous SCBW players. Back in the day one did not expand until your main was empty. After they decided that a 2 base play was good people then made two bases, but did not transfer workers. And so on and so forth. Everything evolved from another person's play. In SC2 there were no standard builds when these kids came to the pros, even though some information from SCBW sticks it's metagame is not nearly as well defined as SCBW.
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Flash's double armory build disagrees with you.
Quote From Me "built their strategy off of other's work"
Meaning that they surely advanced their strategies. They surely improved mechanics and timings and unit use. But they were able to add this because of information they gained by watching previous SCBW players. Back in the day one did not expand until your main was empty. After they decided that a 2 base play was good people then made two bases, but did not transfer workers. And so on and so forth. Everything evolved from another person's play. In SC2 there were no standard builds when these kids came to the pros, even though some information from SCBW sticks it's metagame is not nearly as well defined as SCBW.
Uhhh...
These kids knew to fast expand, and beta was there to figure out the most efficient timings for that. SC2 built off of the strong cores from BW and all that was needed to be determined was timings. If you think SC2 is back where BW was in say, 2001, in terms of metagame development - you're dead wrong.
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Flash's double armory build disagrees with you.
Quote From Me "built their strategy off of other's work"
Meaning that they surely advanced their strategies. They surely improved mechanics and timings and unit use. But they were able to add this because of information they gained by watching previous SCBW players. Back in the day one did not expand until your main was empty. After they decided that a 2 base play was good people then made two bases, but did not transfer workers. And so on and so forth. Everything evolved from another person's play. In SC2 there were no standard builds when these kids came to the pros, even though some information from SCBW sticks it's metagame is not nearly as well defined as SCBW.
Uhhh...
These kids knew to fast expand, and beta was there to figure out the most efficient timings for that. SC2 built off of the strong cores from BW and all that was needed to be determined was timings. If you think SC2 is back where BW was in say, 2001, in terms of metagame development - you're dead wrong.
I have to agree. The game is progressing (and even started) at a pace miles ahead at the start of BW. Plus it's VERY difficult to find a truly 'New' strategy not based on anything else. Take Saviors 3 hatch muta for example. It was very unlike anything else at the time. But the even simple tweaks in BOs can make huge differences. Example being Flash's double armoury build. FE into mech vs P. Not too revolutionary right? Upgrades. Everyone gets upgrades. But the ability to hold on with very few units while upgrading very fast obviously made Flash's build MUCH better vs the then popular carrier builds compared to normal FD/Seige expo builds that were going on.
I remember ForGG when he beat Flash and Jaedong consecutively to win his MSL. It was epic too because he and JD were teammates back then. He 3-0'd Jaedong who was unbeatable at the time. He did the marine split way before MKP when he used bio against a Protoss. He would surely destroy everyone without trying if he ever decides to compete professionally
People who think you can just switch in and instantly be top tier are as stupid as people who think they wouldnt be top tier if they tried.
MVP switched and it took him 3 GSLs before he made any kind of impact, his TvT and TvZ quickly became good (tho he was still knocked out by Zenio in his first GSL) because they are pretty similiar to SC1, but his TvP was - and to an extent still is - nowhere near that level.
And this was when SC2 was WAY easier. I think anyone denying the fact that a top SC1 progamer switching would be a serious contender for the top tier of SC2 is crazy, but it will take some itme and work.
Agreed. Its like a Snooker Pro going to play Pool professionally. Sure both are excellent and hard games at top level, but still, when a Snooker guy comes over, you know he means business. Its just the way it is.
man i would LOVE to see forgg. i loved his scbw playstyle, i still can't forget his game vs kal arena MSL, he played some sick games... i really hope he goes pro in sc2.
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Flash's double armory build disagrees with you.
Quote From Me "built their strategy off of other's work"
Meaning that they surely advanced their strategies. They surely improved mechanics and timings and unit use. But they were able to add this because of information they gained by watching previous SCBW players. Back in the day one did not expand until your main was empty. After they decided that a 2 base play was good people then made two bases, but did not transfer workers. And so on and so forth. Everything evolved from another person's play. In SC2 there were no standard builds when these kids came to the pros, even though some information from SCBW sticks it's metagame is not nearly as well defined as SCBW.
Uhhh...
These kids knew to fast expand, and beta was there to figure out the most efficient timings for that. SC2 built off of the strong cores from BW and all that was needed to be determined was timings. If you think SC2 is back where BW was in say, 2001, in terms of metagame development - you're dead wrong.
The SC2 metagame hardly picked up where BW left off, but it's been advancing much faster, I think.
But to say there hasn't been a lot of change is....wrong. Remember when a Zerg with 4 bases was a Zerg who'd won, because late-game zerg was unstoppable?
Remember when SCV-marine allins were standard TvZ?
Remember when a Protoss with 200 supply versus a Zerg was a protoss who'd won, because late-game Protoss was unstoppable?
Remember when Terran's just didn't get gas (I still have a "Foxer's Enviromentally Friendly Marines" wallpaper somewhere)?
Remember when a 200 supply zerg army got rolled by a 200 supply P or T army and you won by remaxing really fast?
Remember when pure bio was common TvT?
Remember just tank/viking with no harassment?
Remember when magic box wasn't a thing you could do?
Remember when no one knew you could split marines against banelings?
Remember when the purpose of a Stargate PvZ was to hope you could kill the third?
Remember when Terran was super-strong early game against Z and P, and comically weak lategame?
Etc etc etc etc.
The games been redefined enough that it can absolutely change at any time.
I've been meaning to ask what is up with forgg and "The Pretender"? I understand they kept using it over and over as his intro song before matches or group selections... but does anyone know why?
On July 21 2011 13:12 telamascope wrote: I've been meaning to ask what is up with forgg and "The Pretender"? I understand they kept using it over and over as his intro song before matches or group selections... but does anyone know why?
hahahahahaha
They always played 'The Pretender' when ForGG came out, or sometimes when he won, it has become his trademark song, hahahaha
On July 21 2011 13:12 telamascope wrote: I've been meaning to ask what is up with forgg and "The Pretender"? I understand they kept using it over and over as his intro song before matches or group selections... but does anyone know why?
On July 21 2011 13:12 telamascope wrote: I've been meaning to ask what is up with forgg and "The Pretender"? I understand they kept using it over and over as his intro song before matches or group selections... but does anyone know why?
hahahahahaha
They always played 'The Pretender' when ForGG came out, or sometimes when he won, it has become his trademark song, hahahaha
Sigh T_T now I really miss him T_T_T_T_T_T
So is/was he the only progamer to have a "trademark" song? Forgive my ignorance, I just started following BW last season.
A lot of people are forgetting Nada's ridiculous 2009 MSL run. He almost beat Jangbi who was at his peak and godlike in Pvt in a BO5. Arguable, but Forgg was definitely not >>>>>>>>>Nada. KT's roster was probably weaker back then and they hardly played him.
Yup, basically the 'theme' song used in the intro for the Arena MSL he won was "The Pretender" by the foo fighters. And for whatever reason later on they would periodically play the song when he was introduced like at the Bigfile MSL 2010 group selection. I don't know if he was the only one but he is the only one I can think of that ever got that treatment.
@almond
That run was great getting into the top 8, but it was unfortunately at the beginning of 2009, more than a year before sc2. By then Nada wasn't getting played much in Proleague, mostly supplanted for the terran role by Midas and Baby, although Fox having such weak other players did often toss triple or I think once 4 terrans in one match. That said Nada played a great series against possibly the world's best pvt at the time.
As for forGG not getting played, back then Proleague was best of 5 instead of 7 like it is now, and Flash would of course get first dibs being called for a terran or ace spot. For the rest, some maps were just bad for terran or so much better for zerg that it would by zvz all the time. Then there was stats and violet who were emerging as legitimate protoss players. That left forGG only playing when the maps broke right for a 2nd terran. He was still definitely a regular and posting a ~50% win rate as a A teamer and had recently made double starleagues, so if he does make the switch and go sc2 pro (assuming it really is forGG), he would be probably still have to be considered the best player switching (in terms of mechanical play skill in bw, not in achievements).
Yup, basically the 'theme' song used in the intro for the Arena MSL he won was "The Pretender" by the foo fighters. And for whatever reason later on they would periodically play the song when he was introduced like at the Bigfile MSL 2010 group selection. I don't know if he was the only one but he is the only one I can think of that ever got that treatment.
@almond
That run was great getting into the top 8, but it was unfortunately at the beginning of 2009, more than a year before sc2. By then Nada wasn't getting played much in Proleague, mostly supplanted for the terran role by Midas and Baby, although Fox having such weak other players did often toss triple or I think once 4 terrans in one match. That said Nada played a great series against possibly the world's best pvt at the time.
As for forGG not getting played, back then Proleague was best of 5 instead of 7 like it is now, and Flash would of course get first dibs being called for a terran or ace spot. For the rest, some maps were just bad for terran or so much better for zerg that it would by zvz all the time. Then there was stats and violet who were emerging as legitimate protoss players. That left forGG only playing when the maps broke right for a 2nd terran. He was still definitely a regular and posting a ~50% win rate as a A teamer and had recently made double starleagues, so if he does make the switch and go sc2 pro (assuming it really is forGG), he would be probably still have to be considered the best player switching (in terms of mechanical play skill in bw, not in achievements).
Right, but most people are citing his Arena MSL accomplishment which is even further back. He's been extremely lackluster since his switch to KT. He was good at tvz though. (which was what got him so far in recent leagues) Like I said, he' was definitely not auto-win vs Nada. I just don't want people to think that Forgg is miles ahead of all the BW pros that have switched.
On July 16 2011 12:06 HitMonkie wrote: If forGG is Raptor and he does play professinal.
He might play for New Star HoSeo
Talking to the New Star HoSeo players in Sans stream, they all knew who Raptor was and said that he was a big BW player and was playing with them but didnt want people to know who he was.
Anyway it's good and bad to see more former BW players playing SC2.
Good because they're now playing SC2.
Bad because they're no longer playing BW >.< (admittedly I do not watch BW much anymore but it's still fun to watch from time to time). Of course in this case he retired already and I wouldn't mind any retired BW players to return to SC2.
On July 17 2011 15:01 laLAlA[uC] wrote: How long until he becomes the best player in SC2?
Assuming he takes it extremely seriously, no more than 2 months. Calling it.
I'd say less.
but there are some kids that are practicing now for SC2 that have the mind of flash, or the micro of jaedong
Uh, no there isn't? The true pros who fit those qualities are playing Brood War. Maybe eventually though if Korea really switches over.
Watch more GSTL. Then remember that flash and jd while both excellent players built their strategy off of other's work. These kids have to invent everything themselves while improving their mechanics/micro.
Flash's double armory build disagrees with you.
Quote From Me "built their strategy off of other's work"
Meaning that they surely advanced their strategies. They surely improved mechanics and timings and unit use. But they were able to add this because of information they gained by watching previous SCBW players. Back in the day one did not expand until your main was empty. After they decided that a 2 base play was good people then made two bases, but did not transfer workers. And so on and so forth. Everything evolved from another person's play. In SC2 there were no standard builds when these kids came to the pros, even though some information from SCBW sticks it's metagame is not nearly as well defined as SCBW.
Uhhh...
These kids knew to fast expand, and beta was there to figure out the most efficient timings for that. SC2 built off of the strong cores from BW and all that was needed to be determined was timings. If you think SC2 is back where BW was in say, 2001, in terms of metagame development - you're dead wrong.
The SC2 metagame hardly picked up where BW left off, but it's been advancing much faster, I think.
But to say there hasn't been a lot of change is....wrong. Remember when a Zerg with 4 bases was a Zerg who'd won, because late-game zerg was unstoppable?
Remember when SCV-marine allins were standard TvZ?
Remember when a Protoss with 200 supply versus a Zerg was a protoss who'd won, because late-game Protoss was unstoppable?
Remember when Terran's just didn't get gas (I still have a "Foxer's Enviromentally Friendly Marines" wallpaper somewhere)?
Remember when a 200 supply zerg army got rolled by a 200 supply P or T army and you won by remaxing really fast?
Remember when pure bio was common TvT?
Remember just tank/viking with no harassment?
Remember when magic box wasn't a thing you could do?
Remember when no one knew you could split marines against banelings?
Remember when the purpose of a Stargate PvZ was to hope you could kill the third?
Remember when Terran was super-strong early game against Z and P, and comically weak lategame?
Etc etc etc etc.
The games been redefined enough that it can absolutely change at any time.
It is advancing much faster because SC2 has things like replays, teams, ladders, TL.net, liquipedia that SC1 and BW did not start with. Everything you mentioned has basically happened in BW, just over a much longer period of time because of these things. BW didn't have maps that 12 expansions that were 55% balance when it came out. It didn't have perfectly placed mineral lines and gas geysers.
SC2 certainly didn't start where BW left off but it has approached that point much faster because of the development and transitions BW had created and refined.
On July 22 2011 10:04 askTeivospy wrote: sc2 advances faster than bw because sc2 is patched every few months and that is what controls the metagame imo
Not really. Sometimes, it even hinders real refinement and development because some things need to be scrapped and redone entirely every patch. As soon as the game is moderately balanced, I believe there should be no more patches,
On July 22 2011 10:04 askTeivospy wrote: sc2 advances faster than bw because sc2 is patched every few months and that is what controls the metagame imo
Not really. Sometimes, it even hinders real refinement and development because some things need to be scrapped and redone entirely every patch. As soon as the game is moderately balanced, I believe there should be no more patches,
Its too bad it will be a long time before that happens because the expansions will have new units, which completely throw balance off for a while >.<.
On July 22 2011 10:04 askTeivospy wrote: sc2 advances faster than bw because sc2 is patched every few months and that is what controls the metagame imo
Not really. Sometimes, it even hinders real refinement and development because some things need to be scrapped and redone entirely every patch. As soon as the game is moderately balanced, I believe there should be no more patches,
Its too bad it will be a long time before that happens because the expansions will have new units, which completely throw balance off for a while >.<.
I'm not sure if the game will ever be "balanced" to everybody. Balance whine in Sc2 will last forever. IMO, balance isn't a big defining factor in competition, seeing how some players seem to be immune to this "imbalance".
Balance whine will stop when they release SC3 and the SC2 loyalists will talk about how much better it was during sc2 citing sc2 as the epitome of a balanced game.
On July 22 2011 10:04 askTeivospy wrote: sc2 advances faster than bw because sc2 is patched every few months and that is what controls the metagame imo
have to say i disagree...without patches just the general development some people will find an amazing strategy for one matchup making that seem brilliant for the moment (is TvZ at this mlg an example?) but then those e.g. zerg players will go away and someone will find a brilliant counter to it and tip the balance in zergs favour for that matchup and it will continue like this almost indefinitely.
proof is brood war, even ages after the last patches you would have radical new builds or styles that would turn matchups on their heads.
On July 22 2011 10:04 askTeivospy wrote: sc2 advances faster than bw because sc2 is patched every few months and that is what controls the metagame imo
Not really. Sometimes, it even hinders real refinement and development because some things need to be scrapped and redone entirely every patch. As soon as the game is moderately balanced, I believe there should be no more patches,
Yes and he doesn't even acknowledge the fact that BW is over a decade old. Very flawed logic. ;/
SC2 will be constantly changing for years to come due to Blizzard's timetable.
Yup, basically the 'theme' song used in the intro for the Arena MSL he won was "The Pretender" by the foo fighters. And for whatever reason later on they would periodically play the song when he was introduced like at the Bigfile MSL 2010 group selection. I don't know if he was the only one but he is the only one I can think of that ever got that treatment.
Some of the OSL group selections would play the theme music of the leagues past winners had won when they walked in. It never stuck to any individual player the way ForGG's miraculous Arena MSL run did, though.
Famous BW players transitioning to SC2.. that might be great!!! We will have to see how far Yellow will go and if fOrGG is actually gonna play it at professional level.
If this is really fOrGG and he takes it seriously (I have every faith in him to get to GM without playing particularly seriously), everybody else should get ready to move down a rung in tournament results.
On August 01 2011 11:05 Frequencyy wrote: wasn't forGG that guy that was banned for cheating along with Savior?
no maybe you are thinking of go.go?
or upmagic, I think upmagic even considered picking up sc2 (there WAS an interview between him and artosis on artosis' youtube channel), but then gom announced that they will ban all matchfixers from their events... for live...
On September 02 2011 02:05 QTIP. wrote: Considering his high ladder ranking -- why does he have no interest in Code A?
prob not ready yet, hes good but still new. He prob want go far if hes participating, I mean a lot will have high expectation and the worst thing is to disappoint his fans.He's not on any team yet so I don't know.
Wait, so he's been playing for a year but he hasn't participated in any tournaments or joined any teams? Is there some tangible reason or is it just because he's treating it like a hobby?
On September 02 2011 08:39 tyCe wrote: Wait, so he's been playing for a year but he hasn't participated in any tournaments or joined any teams? Is there some tangible reason or is it just because he's treating it like a hobby?
I speculate that the same personal reasons that forced him to abruptly retire from BW are perhaps continuing to prevent him from fully becoming pro in SC2. Now, we don't know what those personal reasons are, though we can always guess.
On September 02 2011 08:39 tyCe wrote: Wait, so he's been playing for a year but he hasn't participated in any tournaments or joined any teams? Is there some tangible reason or is it just because he's treating it like a hobby?
I speculate that the same personal reasons that forced him to abruptly retire from BW are perhaps continuing to prevent him from fully becoming pro in SC2. Now, we don't know what those personal reasons are, though we can always guess.
His house is being watched by Ninjas, and he catch leave to attend tournaments because they are not the kind of Ninjas you want to leave your children around.
Well, be cool if he actually competes in the pro scene in sc2, but seems kinda doubtful if hes been playing since january and hasn't made any effort to go pro in all that time even though hes in grand master league. Also, shame hes a terran if he goes pro, there's so many damn good korean terrans I wish more protoss/zergs would come into the scene
Source oGs announced ForGG's return to progaming as a SC2 player. He will be training in the oGs house starting September 29th for next season's Code A Qualifiers.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8vO4T.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eYCov.png)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/forggpig.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/o9ej3s.jpg)
