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i don't really understand why there are different tournements for women en male players btw , i mean if a women practices just as hard as a male player , she should do just as wel as sc2
hope she does wel
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On July 14 2011 22:34 Virtue wrote:
ESPORTS: Now with 100% more girls!
Exactly.
Also am I the only one here who thought, "OMFG YELLOWWW!!!" when they read the forum topic? (But before glancing at the content)
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On July 14 2011 22:29 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture. according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242083this player is a chick http://sc2ranks.com/tw/481504/luway
Actually, if you look at the ranks in GM, she's rank 227, and havent played for 3 months, which probably means that she was kicked from GM. 
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So cute!! SlayerSEve FIGHTING!!
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All I'm going to say is that men will always be superior to women at things they do, for example sports. I'm not saying women don't contribute anything to society, it's just that men tend to be more athletic and superior at almost everything. Good luck to her though, Eve fighting!!!
On a side note: I hope she pwns Idra, Destiny and any other cocky player. I ♥ Idra, even though he's cocky. ^^
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On July 14 2011 22:36 KentHenry wrote:
All I'm going to say is that men will always be superior to women at things they do, for example sports. I'm not saying women don't contribute anything to society, it's just that men tend to be more athletic and superior at almost everything. Good luck to her though, Eve fighting!!!
On a side note: I hope she pwns Idra, Destiny and any other cocky player. I ♥ Idra, even though he's cocky. ^^
...Why so sexist?
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On July 14 2011 22:29 mutantmagnet wrote:
Bravo Slayers. You added another Terran player to your already grossly Terran Heavy team.
I strongly suspect this will bite them hard for a long time when the new expansions come out and they don't have enough representatives from the other races to help them understand the changes as quickly as they need to.
Warning: GSL spoilers
+ Show Spoiler [GSL Spoilers] +It already bit them in the ass in the GSTL, as Killer demolished them. Alicia is simply not enough to pick up on all the new protoss trends and provide enough TvP training to everyone.
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Getting girls in eSports... I like. But, isn't kind of strange that she AND MCs girlfriend both look like TOP?
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On July 14 2011 22:37 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:29 mutantmagnet wrote:
Bravo Slayers. You added another Terran player to your already grossly Terran Heavy team.
I strongly suspect this will bite them hard for a long time when the new expansions come out and they don't have enough representatives from the other races to help them understand the changes as quickly as they need to. Warning: GSL spoilers + Show Spoiler [GSL Spoilers] +It already bit them in the ass in the GSTL, as Killer demolished them. Alicia is simply not enough to pick up on all the new protoss trends.
+ Show Spoiler [GSTL Spoiler] +Nice call, SangHo lopsided ownage ftw lol
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On July 14 2011 22:29 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture. according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242083this player is a chick http://sc2ranks.com/tw/481504/luway
22 won, 5 lost, ratio of 81.48%
Not much of a record. I didn't realize you could become GM with so few games.
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SlayerS = smart. I wasn't planning to watch through all the GSTL games and wasn't even sure I should have bothered to pay for the pass. But after reading this, I immediately went over to GOM to see if the VODs were up yet.
Things that make you want to watch = good for eSports.
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On July 14 2011 22:39 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:29 Phaded wrote:On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture. according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242083this player is a chick http://sc2ranks.com/tw/481504/luway 22 won, 5 lost, ratio of 81.48% Not much of a record. I didn't realize you could become GM with so few games.
Taiwan is one of the least competitive servers.
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On July 14 2011 19:10 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Is the OP translation accurate when it says that Slayers_Jessica recruited her based on looks and skill?
I find that a bit troubling. I'm very much in favor of females being given equal opportunities and respect as progamers, but the idea of a progamer being given a slot on a prestegious team even in part because of their looks isn't okay. Especially a female progamer, since that makes a statement that detracts from the legitimacy of females as competitors in esports.
That being said, congratulations to Eve! I'm looking forward to seeing what she's got.
It shouldn't be troubling, looks play a bigger role than you think for male players
And yeah I saw her before several times and I always thought it was MMA's girlfriend... Looks like an obvious publicity move, but it would be awesome that I get proven wrong
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On July 14 2011 22:29 mutantmagnet wrote:
Bravo Slayers. You added another Terran player to your already grossly Terran Heavy team.
I strongly suspect this will bite them hard for a long time when the new expansions come out and they don't have enough representatives from the other races to help them understand the changes as quickly as they need to.
While I agree with you that SlayerS might be too Terran heavy - if a top player from race X knocks at your door and wants in - you send them away? I somehow doubt they had to chose between "This good P, this good Z, this mediocre T girl".
I also somehow doubt that Ga Yeon has enough influence to bring a player to the team (not only clan) who has no skill. I think Boxer / Cella / MMA / all the other members would be against it.
We also need to remember - who was i.e. Alicia before he joined SlayerS? Basically a no-name. SlayerS, for me, always stood for taking the unknown players and molding them into high caliber players. Maybe they will do the same with Eve - who knows.
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just another female progamer. no biggie.
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On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be.
I understand that it's a global league for a global audience but just becausing GSL is gaining viewers from oversees doesnt mean they studenly gain knowledge of all the countries they broadcast to. Take for example the constant spelling and grammitical errors that pop up all the time. This alone makes me think the bridge between us and them has a few holes, things are getting lost in translation.
Regarding whether these values of beauty still exist, I really couldn't say. Spending a few months in korea I became really aware of the significant of being attractive. but maybe I was to generalising on that subject in my previous post. I'll let someone more deep-rooted in south korean society tackle that subject.
Here's an interesting post made earlier in the thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhysiognomyPhysiognomy has been pretty popular in Korea around 40 years ago, so about 2 generations ago. It's pretty much leftover from that popular belief. I think my mum still believes it.
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On July 14 2011 22:30 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. I see your point, but the thing is its not like there are all these potential pro females lurking in Korean GM league. I'm sure if there were, they would make it onto professional teams. This isn't stopping any women from participating in SC2. Plus its an entertainment industry, attractiveness is going to play a role at some point. Did you see those pictures of the GSL players in makeup? Ed: typo
I'm not as worried about the poor grandmasters girls as I am about female stereotypes in general. Girls are not actively hindered in competing. But what are they to make of the impression that you are supposed to be pretty if you want to be a public member of this community?
And I'll happily criticise the entertainment industry as a whole for reinforcing the importance of good looks, not just for women but people in general.
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I'm gonna reserve judgement after watching a few series with her
really hopes she can take some games, so it won't seem like a "stunt" as i feel it is atm
best of luck to her and SlayerS 
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Haha this is for real? My guess is that she'll become a mascot like tossgirl who gets to play 3 games a season to maintain her credibility (and she will probably lose them all, of course).
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On July 14 2011 22:37 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:36 KentHenry wrote:
All I'm going to say is that men will always be superior to women at things they do, for example sports. I'm not saying women don't contribute anything to society, it's just that men tend to be more athletic and superior at almost everything. Good luck to her though, Eve fighting!!!
On a side note: I hope she pwns Idra, Destiny and any other cocky player. I ♥ Idra, even though he's cocky. ^^ ...Why so sexist?
Just being honest. lol
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EPT
