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Canada13400 Posts
On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be.
I think its a pretty big assumption to equate a girl you find attractive having a place on a pro game team, with a girl you might not find attractive not on a pro game team and assume the physical appearance of said girls as being the sole reason for their relative positions.
This being said, I'm glad SlayerS picked up a female progamer, perhaps we can have a more balanced representation of men and women in the E-Sports scene over time if more women choose to become involved or dedicate time to play after seeing others doing well in the profession.
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Anyone know her ladder profile? If she's GM or even high Masters then they could potentially train her into a decent player.
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On July 14 2011 21:16 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:09 Liquid`HuK wrote:On July 14 2011 21:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I really hope she turns out to be amazingly talented / dedicated and does great. nice joke i just hope she shows up to soccer on saturday You plan hitting on her? Damn son, she is cute and all but she looks way to young, it would just feel wrong (even tho shes 22). And besides MMA did in fact train mma before going pro, so prepare to get you ass kicked if she begins screaming :D.
Huk and she are almost the same age (22 Korean = 20-21 in the US, which means she's born around 1990)
EDIT: ugh that's even more disturbing, not only does she look like my ex but they're also the same age.
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Oh man there is gonna be so much pressure on her when she plays :/.
Hope she does really really well!
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On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough?
No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On July 14 2011 21:09 Liquid`HuK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I really hope she turns out to be amazingly talented / dedicated and does great. nice joke i just hope she shows up to soccer on saturday
Yeah, about that. 3-way soccer? You guys are crazy
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She said she is a fan of MMA and looks forward to practice with her new teammates and become an integral part of the team.
Yeah, she wants MMA. She better get in line though
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On July 14 2011 22:10 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone know her ladder profile? If she's GM or even high Masters then they could potentially train her into a decent player.
Although it doesn't say in the OP, if she's good enough to be spotted by SlayerS_Jessica, I'm sure she'd have to be at least Masters. I mean, Jessica has probably spotted lots players with lots of potential so I don't think she would be that bad. However, she did mention that she chose her based on skill and looks, so I'm not sure XD. Nonetheless, great find for SlayerS and it's good to know that the SC2 community is becoming more diverse!
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On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture.
Why do you care about a "distorted picture"? It's a bad thing there are pretty girls in SC2? Is it hurting ESPORTS?
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oh man too many people who takes themself too serious here. in asia it is normal to flatter someone to say that they are good looking(even if it is not the case). it isnt really a big deal. just be happy that esports is getting bigger.
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Wow, this is great news for e-sports.
I just hope this thread can manage to stay open.
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On July 14 2011 21:40 Steamroller wrote:
What no sexist jokes so far? Ok heres one, i quess they needed someone helping at the kitchen trololol! jk jk!
User was warned for this post
We don't do things like that here at TeamLiquid.
Still, despite being a female and all, SlayerS probably did recruit her because they saw potential in her as a player, not because she looks pretty. I think a two-time GSTL champion team headed by BoxeR and coached by Cella of all people would take their team composition very seriously, hence she must be at least decent.
Although I am questioning the fact that SlayerS_Jessica recruited her but I think it probably went to a team vote or BoxeR and Cella assessed her skill. But who knows, she might even best SlayerS_MMA.
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On July 14 2011 22:08 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. I think its a pretty big assumption to equate a girl you find attractive having a place on a pro game team, with a girl you might not find attractive not on a pro game team and assume the physical appearance of said girls as being the sole reason for their relative positions. This being said, I'm glad SlayerS picked up a female progamer, perhaps we can have a more balanced representation of men and women in the E-Sports scene over time if more women choose to become involved or dedicate time to play after seeing others doing well in the profession.
It seems like "where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be" is easily misunderstood. Appearantly there are no Grandmasters girls, but if there were any we'd expect them to be there. Now putting SlayerSEve (not sure about capitalisation) in that spot communicates that the typical girl who would be there is pretty. I do not agree with that stereotype because it suggests that success and good looks go hand in hand for girls and I do not think that is a good suggestion.
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On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture.
according to
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242083
this player is a chick
http://sc2ranks.com/tw/481504/luway
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Bravo Slayers. You added another Terran player to your already grossly Terran Heavy team.
I strongly suspect this will bite them hard for a long time when the new expansions come out and they don't have enough representatives from the other races to help them understand the changes as quickly as they need to.
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On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be.
I see your point, but the thing is its not like there are all these potential pro females lurking in Korean GM league. I'm sure if there were, they would make it onto professional teams. This isn't stopping any women from participating in SC2.
Plus its an entertainment industry, attractiveness is going to play a role at some point. Did you see those pictures of the GSL players in makeup?
Ed: typo
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Don't care about the gender ... but another terran :-(
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On July 14 2011 22:24 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:18 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 22:04 Novalisk wrote:On July 14 2011 22:02 DonkeyShot wrote:On July 14 2011 21:03 CaptainTwig wrote:On July 14 2011 20:11 DonkeyShot wrote:
Really questionable decision. It's incredible that this gets so much positive feedback.
Regardless of how well she can actually play, this is clearly a publicity move. That in itself wouldn't be too bad but:
1. It appears like a demonstration of equal opportunities and emancipation while
2. subversively reinforcing chauvinistic stereotypes by associating womens success with their appeal to men.
So it's not just sexist, it even disguises itself as the opposite. It puts womens success at the mercy of their appeal towards men, which is one of the most subtle and unfair prejudices towards women. And you cannot tell me that her looks and appeal to men did not play a role in her recruitment. They could have picked thousands of other girls. And if one tries to argue that one has to pick from the thousands of girls by some aspect, then making it her looks reinforces the picture of the dominance of male interest whether you want it or not.
The people here saying that her looks are not important are making it even worse, because they are acting as if this issue did not actually exist. Even if she plays well, it still reinforces the stereotype that only women who appeal to men can be successful. And the same is true for TossGirl.
You should rethink your enthusiasm. 'sexism' I think thats taking it a bit far. claiming this is a scheme to excisise womens rights publicly, I would say is closer to sexism my friend She was picked to appeal to men? aruable She was picked for her looks? Yes she was. Jessica publicly announced it! Jessica publicly announced it. Doesn't that mean anything to you? for me personally it's just another reminder that Korea isn't England or American or Germany etc. You need to apply some culteral context to the sitaution as I said earlier Let's not forget Korea is on the other side of the planet, being attractive in Korea is a big deal, seeking beauty isn't looked at as being something shallow or insubstantial. Cultural context is important, I agree, but it is not an excuse. It's hard to argue for cultural relativism in a globalised world and the starcraft scene of wich this is a part goes far beyond Korea. In particular, this picture is not just presented to Koreans but to us as well und is thus not just a part of their culture but of ours as well. I do not see good looks as virtuous because I do not think it is a conscious decision to look good and if Koreans think otherwise (I trust you on this) then I have to disagree because I do not see how these values could exist independently of each other today. Also, I do not have a problem with "schemes" to exercise womens rights publicly. My problem is that this appears to be one while it is actually reinforcing unfair rolemodels. On July 14 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:
Sex appeal isn't the only appeal. If a grandmaster girl came around, men would like her even if she wasn't a looker. That's not the point. It's about putting pretty girls in positions where Grandmasters girls are supposed to be. Wait, you honestly think there are grandmaster girls that aren't getting into teams because they're not pretty enough? No, that's not what I think. If there were Grandmasters girls (i don't know if there are, it seems not) I assume they could be there. But that's entirely hypothetical. It's the fact that the only girls that are there are pretty. And that seems like a very distorted picture. Why do you care about a "distorted picture"? It's a bad thing there are pretty girls in SC2? Is it hurting ESPORTS?
It sounds like you're suggesting that we should reinforce unfair rolemodels as long as it does not hurt esports. Are you trolling?
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ESPORTS: Now with 100% more girls!
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EPT
