EPTThe voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
[Update] Raidcall situation - Page 9
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steamrice
435 Posts
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JustTray
127 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote: their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. | ||
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oBlade
United States6105 Posts
Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller? | ||
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iba001
Australia156 Posts
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote: I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay. I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it. yeah you're absolutely ok with it until you get banned for something as silly as this. My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side. | ||
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JustTray
127 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:14 oBlade wrote: It boggles my mind that people are so quick to side with Blizzard before we have even heard from them - i.e., Blizzard could easily apologize and unban the accounts, but there is already a swarm of people saying that it serves them right for using voip during a video game. Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller? "People think it's ok to ban them for using VOIP in a video game" - Horrible Strawman No one is arguing that. People use ventrillo every day. They got banned for the overlay the program was creating because it's the same thing that hackers use to remain undetected. The correct argument is one of is it "ok" that a bunch of innocent people got banned because that was the only way to stop the hackers? Personally I believe so, but I didn't get banned for it, so I'm admittedly bias. If there was a way to differentiate the real hackers from the only voip users, then I would be all for fixing the problem, but I'm assuming that there is not a way to do so based on Bliz's responses. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote: This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. | ||
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:06 JustTray wrote: Are you? Like I said, you CAN sue them, but it's up to you to prove it's unreasonable that they are allowed to ban people for 3rd party programs while playing their game, which is specifically covered in their ToS (You know, the one they update and you agree to every time there's a new patch?), so good luck. Again, it's all covered very well in the ToS. If you think you have a case, don't argue it to me, go start your case. I'll eagerly await your results. The bigger issue here would be finding someone stupid enough to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to recover their $50 purchase price for a computer game. | ||
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AlphaWing
Taiwan36 Posts
On July 14 2011 06:50 duxx wrote: This is the latest response from Customer Support: Following a review of your case, I can confirm that the evidence presented was correct, and that the subsequent action taken was appropriate. Our decision in this matter stands, and will not be overturned. Please note, it is our policy never to reveal details regarding account investigations, beyond the information given in the original notice mail, for privacy and security reasons. We now consider this matter closed, and would not look to enter into further communication on the matter. thanks blizzard, i have never used cheat on sc2 and u just cost me 60 euro cuz i was talking with ppl using raidcall :S That is the same thing the Customer Support in Taiwan answered us. Now 40% of people in Taiwan server got banned because of this reason, this is madness!! This is _______!!!!! | ||
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R1CH
Netherlands10342 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game? Seems the wish has been granted. Are you serious? Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding. | ||
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etree
United States10 Posts
Support said that they had to escalate the issue up to the account admins to review his account and review the program. One more step forward! Phone calls and support tickets to make them recognize that there IS an issue. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote: Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. uhh, yeah because you create the product, using blizzards editor, and thereby AGREEING to their EULA before you ever even create something. | ||
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
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oBlade
United States6105 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:17 JustTray wrote: "People think it's ok to ban them for using VOIP in a video game" - Horrible Strawman No one is arguing that. People use ventrillo every day. They got banned for the overlay the program was creating because it's the same thing that hackers use to remain undetected. The correct argument is one of is it "ok" that a bunch of innocent people got banned because that was the only way to stop the hackers? Personally I believe so, but I didn't get banned for it, so I'm admittedly bias. If there was a way to differentiate the real hackers from the only voip users, then I would be all for fixing the problem, but I'm assuming that there is not a way to do so based on Bliz's responses. It's not a strawman, it's a rhetorical device to try to get you to behold the absurdity of the situation. And while I appreciate you condescending to explain, I think you understand the technology even worse than I do. It should be obvious you can't use raidcall's overlay "to remain undetected" during maphacking if you immediately get detected and banned for it. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:20 R1CH wrote: Are you serious? Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding. The R1CH has spoken! no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden. Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks. | ||
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JustTray
127 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote: Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:20 R1CH wrote: Are you serious? Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding. I'm not saying that this particular overlay is cheating or modding. What I am saying is that there were (are) numerous of people who clamor that anyone who goes against the TOS/EULA in any way shape or form deserves to be instant-banned with no warning whatsoever, and it was those same people who say they deserved to lose their $60 over it. Now here we are with the overlay. Does it at all give you an advantage in any way shape or form in-game? No, and I'm certain that blizzard wouldn't have a problem either if it didn't affect the game itself in a way where it could be manipulated for other mods that are game influencing. | ||
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R1CH
Netherlands10342 Posts
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oBlade
United States6105 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote: Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? You can take unconscionable contracts to court in real life, and shrinkwrap licenses aren't handled exactly the same (they probably have a little less force than other contracts but wouldn't go to court as often because they are normally so trivial). You can take EULAs to court too, supposing you have money. This comes up too often to have such misinformation. Edit: On the point of IP, it's a simple analogy. Sibelius and Printmusic don't own the original works of composers just because they wrote them down using that software. Spalding doesn't own your tennis skills. Nikon doesn't own those nude pictures you took in a hotel. | ||
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JustTray
127 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:23 oBlade wrote: It's not a strawman, it's a rhetorical device to try to get you to behold the absurdity of the situation. And while I appreciate you condescending to explain, I think you understand the technology even worse than I do. It should be obvious you can't use raidcall's overlay "to remain undetected" during maphacking if you immediately get detected and banned for it. Your post has a simple answer. They didn't know how to detect those hacks. They were undetectable, and they still are. Clearly, the most probable reason is that since they couldn't differentiate overlays, they banned ALL overlays. That's why that post is a strawman. It's an argument no one is making or presenting, IE the definition exactly of a strawman. Please don't presume to know more than me just because I disagreed with you and adequately explained the situation. I understand perfectly how bnet works with respect to server client relationship, in addition to how hacks are undetectable, with an even more additional understanding of how hacks use overlays to remain hidden. So once again, the argument is, "was there not another way to detect it?" Probably not. And - "did all overlay users have to get banned?" | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote: Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room. User was warned for this post | ||
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