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On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
I don't know what you're trying to argue. It's not an arguable position. You're simply wrong.
This is exactly why they have a ToS, and what it is for. Your governmental rights don't supercede private contracts you agree to. I almost feel like next you're going to say you have a right to free speech on battle.net like the high schooler without any legal knowledge.
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On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
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United States12275 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:24 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:20 R1CH wrote:On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote:
Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted. Are you serious? Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding. The R1CH has spoken! no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden. Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks.
Well that's the thing, isn't it? It all depends on what SC2 can actually see and whether it's able to identify a particular process that's drawing to the screen. I'm not a programmer so I don't know exactly how DX hooks work, but if all Warden sees is "something is presenting an overlay and it's accessing the network" and that's how it classifies hacks then that's why they're not budging on it. If they're able to distinguish in some way, like "process X with Y memory signature (or some other identifier) is overlaying the screen", then Blizzard tests Raidcall and gets that information and compares it to what's recorded, then they could reverse the bans. It all depends on how much information they actually have to distinguish between a hacker's overlay and something like Raidcall, in my estimation.
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Anyways I can tell you "no company can tell me what I agree to" types are getting mad at the truth, so I'll just leave you to your imaginary lawsuits.
I am truely sorry if any of you got incorrectly banned, but in the end it was for the greater good. I hope Bliz can find a way to identify the false positives.
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I love all the people wanting to sue blizzard. besides wasting $60 dollars on a game you can no longer play, what are blizzard's damages against you? what are you going to sue for, $60?
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On July 14 2011 07:17 iba001 wrote:
My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side.
It's not «empathy», from what they saw and the information they had it was a plug to the game rendering engine altering what the SC2 window was showing.
As they didn't have any other info, it's quite normal they banned the account.
Let's just hope they'll unban them ASAP.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:35 Jtn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room. If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
Lawsuits are filed arguing against a ToS every day. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, and usually they settle.
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On July 14 2011 07:28 R1CH wrote:
Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program?
Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field.
I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
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United States12275 Posts
Stop talking about suing Blizzard. That's dumb.
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On July 14 2011 07:08 Kamikiri wrote:
Is there a way to actually know if these people were banned for using this program and not something else? Is there a chance they could have actually been hacking or breaking TOS in another way because Blizzard seems very adamant that they made the correct decision and Blizzard is pretty smart usually.
Well Blizzard made Bnet 2.0, so I wouldn't give them too much credit...
I'm actually surprised that people are willing to go with "as long as it protects me from the hackers, the people who are banned deserve it". It's the same kind of slippery slope that gives people false security, while giving more power to corporations and taking away common sense.
It's clear that since not everyone using overlays were banned, Blizzard does have some sort of detection that is preventing them from banning their entire user base. Otherwise, the fact that there are so many people calling should raise a flag in their customer service department. If people remember the realID storm that was raised awhile back, Blizzard does revert changes if enough shit is raised.
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On July 14 2011 07:35 Jtn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room. If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
Uhhh, what? People do it and win.
Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field.
I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
I think my brain is going to pop. Blizzard doesn't have the right to be overzealous idiots about banning people just because they take a hardline, people are essentially giving them a free pass and saying they dont have to do their due diligence in getting it right while their own customers have to tip toe around an unnecessarily hazy line when it comes to this.
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I'm glad blizzard is catching all those filthy cheaters.
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On July 14 2011 07:35 Jtn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room. If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
the fact that ToS are always adherent contracts, makes them arguable.
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On July 14 2011 07:38 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:28 R1CH wrote:
Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program? Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field. I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
You do realize that they are not banning because its an overlay but because of how the program works, correct? They probably dont know its just an overlay or they wouldnt ban these people. They also did not say they will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience.
Blizzard banned because the program looked like a hack to them because of the way it works read the other posts they didnt just go its an overlay those evil people /ban. This being said Blizzard will probably unban the people once they realize what happened but you really should not hate on blizzard for doing this, yes it sucks to the people who got banned for this and you will probably get your account back.
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United States12275 Posts
On July 14 2011 07:29 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:24 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program? Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs. Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room. User was warned for this post
Don't post stuff like this. Internet lawyers are not appreciated, and neither is derailing the thread. Keep on topic.
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On July 14 2011 07:21 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:18 Energizer wrote:On July 14 2011 07:14 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 07:11 turdburgler wrote:On July 14 2011 07:03 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 06:48 JustTray wrote:On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote:
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them. Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application. Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense. Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value. are you a lawyer? because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere. Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights. You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law. uhh, yeah because you create the product, using blizzards editor, and thereby AGREEING to their EULA before you ever even create something.
Yeah this is "similar" with other programs too like 3ds Max (the non business version that is) and basically any other program that has a business and/or home use version. Also the list includes video games (some video game engines are free to use and free to be used for games but for most you need to license the engine to be able to sell it).
Now with those programs, you cannot sell things made using the program unless you get the business or commercial version. Sort of the same thing with Blizzard (except in this case there is no business version [well except map market place coming in HotS but it's still technically Blizzard's map]).
You may say in those cases , people own the stuff they create. That is partially true (if they made assets using 3ds Max for example) but they still cannot sell it (which means that you do not completely own it) because you used 3ds Max to create that asset. Same thing sort of applies with SC2.
Finally it's a way for Blizzard to gain legal freedom with SC2 (it would stink for Blizzard if they got sued because they gave map makers ownership of their own maps).
Honestly I do not think Blizzard is that "evil" of a company (most of the time they're reasonable, especially with community made stuff) for this to be a concern.
I'm fine with Blizzard having ownership of the map because the Galaxy Editor is really good and they continue to update it. Other games you won't get a good modding tool as Galaxy Editor (in other cases, they don't even want you to mod their games and/or there's no easy way to share your mods with others).
[Edit] In terms of Blizzard stealing or using things from maps made by players in their own maps or so - I don't think that's a concern. Now I'm not a Blizzard fanboy (I sided with KeSPA because Blizzard really seemed greedy in that case) but I think it's fine Blizzard wants 100% ownership of the map because the tools and assets Blizzard has provided is all theirs.
What about custom assets? Well that's debateable and depends whether or not the EULA directly states all maps and all things used in the map(key phrase) "or" simply just all maps used using Blizzard's assets (technically the map itself would be an asset that belongs to Blizzard due to using SC2 engine. In this case the "SC2 map" would be owned by Blizzard regardless of whether it contains 100% user created assets but those assets would still belong to the person I "assume").
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On July 14 2011 07:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:24 Kazeyonoma wrote:On July 14 2011 07:20 R1CH wrote:On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote:
Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted. Are you serious? Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding. The R1CH has spoken! no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden. Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks. Well that's the thing, isn't it? It all depends on what SC2 can actually see and whether it's able to identify a particular process that's drawing to the screen. I'm not a programmer so I don't know exactly how DX hooks work, but if all Warden sees is "something is presenting an overlay and it's accessing the network" and that's how it classifies hacks then that's why they're not budging on it. If they're able to distinguish in some way, like "process X with Y memory signature (or some other identifier) is overlaying the screen", then Blizzard tests Raidcall and gets that information and compares it to what's recorded, then they could reverse the bans. It all depends on how much information they actually have to distinguish between a hacker's overlay and something like Raidcall, in my estimation.
Generally hacks like maphacks work by merely presenting information that is already present on the client but hidden in view. What I am saying is that maphacks do not need to perform anything over the internet connection as the opponents movements are already inside the running client. All that the hack does is render that information.
So how does it work? Well normally through memory injection but it can still be seen as a running process.
Why can't Blizzard just check your running processes in your memory? Because that is illegal. Blizzard can only check Blizzard process because that is the length of there sovereignty. This was circumvented in WoW awhile back by blizzard. What they would do is if they suspected you were cheating, they would hammer the core that your WoW was running on until it gave up, because when this happens a memory dump occurs and Blizzard can then check the dump for stuff against the terms of use. Now with multicore processors being all the rage, Im sure this process is a little more complicated, they do this when picking up new hacks I believe.
Why ban an overlay? Well, I am pretty sure they do not know exactly what raidcall is capable of or what it exactly looks when running at that low of a level. So Blizzard merely flags and bans a particular family of processes that they see is tampering with anything graphically related to SC2. Raidcall would most certainly fit in that family.
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Can someone explain what you can achieve with an overlay as far as external maphack that you can't achieve with a second monitor or by relaying the information over the network to a laptop next to you. I don't have experience using these hacks but I am a graduate student in Computer Science and read the source code to one of the original external maphacks so I understand how they work.
Is their some magic to what they are doing with overlays that makes it so much better than simply displaying the minimap and current production information on a separate screen?
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Want to see some Stats?
There is a poll being held in Taiwan, because of so many people being banned,
Currently 714 people has answered the poll,
281 got banned, 39.36% of total
463 uses RC, 64.85% of total
For those who got banned:
253 are using RC, 90.04% of those being banned
For those who use RC:
253 are banned, 54.64% of those using RC.
Results are here:
http://goo.gl/2oKWi
It updates every 5 mins
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EPT
