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On June 26 2011 18:31 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:17 ZAiNs wrote:On June 26 2011 18:09 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 26 2011 18:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 26 2011 17:58 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 26 2011 10:16 Geordie wrote:On June 26 2011 10:13 SayHello wrote:
Huk has EU acc, so he can use his... He is using TLO's account because he can not use his own as his huk account has too high MMR that he can not find a game. Again, TLO is rank 1 on EU. So using TLO's account will make it take even longer to find a game. And the AMM already widens the matching criteria as search time increases, what more do you want Blizzard to do? Read the first post... It took Huk 15 minutes to find a game on his account, there is obviously something wrong with his account. Nowhere in the OP does it say that it took 15 minutes to find a game on HuK's account, and even so I don't see how using TLO's account would have made it quicker on average, since TLO is ranked 1. It could just be dumb luck that during those 15 minutes no one with such a high MMR was searching, but when he changed accounts someone with a high MMR happened to also be searching. The AMM already widens the matching criteria, so again, what more do you want Blizzard to do? "For 15 minutes Chris 'HuK' Loranger was looked at the gleaming yellow little man, waited for his next Battle.net opponent." MMA =/= Ladder Points. Obviously there is something wrong, my brother in GM searched at 6am for a game, it took 5 minutes and he played against a mid-Diamond player (who he got 1 point for beating), a few days later he played Happy who was ranked second on ladder. Under no circumstances should Huk have to wait anywhere near 15 minutes. OK, I see it now. MMR is essentially the same thing as ladder points in GM since you have to remain active (which mostly takes out bonus pool as a factor) and there are no division tiers. I still find it harder to believe that there's a bug with the matchmaking only in this specific situation, than there simply being no one else searching at the time. But there's no way for us to ever know.
I watch a lot of GM streams and they never wait 30 minutes to get an opponent. Since this was around 9 pm in Europe there's no reason why no one else would be playing at the time.
Mystery solved.
Since Huk is in fact not in GM league on his European account (he's not in any league, he still haven't played his placement match for season 2) there's nothing to contradict that Huk's MMR may in fact be (vastly?) superior to TLO who is currently in the #1 spot on the European ladder.
There is clearly a bug that's causing Huk to not get matched.
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Thread is pointless, please close it.
Blizzard are enforcing their rules and setting an example, which is great.
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This is such a stupid thing to go over, if blizzard was so keen on this, they should just have informed TLO by an email or something, phoning is completely unnecessary.
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On June 26 2011 19:46 iAmNass wrote:
Thread is pointless, please close it.
Blizzard are enforcing their rules and setting an example, which is great.
You are pointless, please shut up.
Blizzard is acting like a retard, which is sad.
User was warned for this post
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On June 26 2011 19:43 Not_That wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:31 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 26 2011 18:17 ZAiNs wrote:On June 26 2011 18:09 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 26 2011 18:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 26 2011 17:58 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 26 2011 10:16 Geordie wrote:On June 26 2011 10:13 SayHello wrote:
Huk has EU acc, so he can use his... He is using TLO's account because he can not use his own as his huk account has too high MMR that he can not find a game. Again, TLO is rank 1 on EU. So using TLO's account will make it take even longer to find a game. And the AMM already widens the matching criteria as search time increases, what more do you want Blizzard to do? Read the first post... It took Huk 15 minutes to find a game on his account, there is obviously something wrong with his account. Nowhere in the OP does it say that it took 15 minutes to find a game on HuK's account, and even so I don't see how using TLO's account would have made it quicker on average, since TLO is ranked 1. It could just be dumb luck that during those 15 minutes no one with such a high MMR was searching, but when he changed accounts someone with a high MMR happened to also be searching. The AMM already widens the matching criteria, so again, what more do you want Blizzard to do? "For 15 minutes Chris 'HuK' Loranger was looked at the gleaming yellow little man, waited for his next Battle.net opponent." MMA =/= Ladder Points. Obviously there is something wrong, my brother in GM searched at 6am for a game, it took 5 minutes and he played against a mid-Diamond player (who he got 1 point for beating), a few days later he played Happy who was ranked second on ladder. Under no circumstances should Huk have to wait anywhere near 15 minutes. OK, I see it now. MMR is essentially the same thing as ladder points in GM since you have to remain active (which mostly takes out bonus pool as a factor) and there are no division tiers. I still find it harder to believe that there's a bug with the matchmaking only in this specific situation, than there simply being no one else searching at the time. But there's no way for us to ever know. I watch a lot of GM streams and they never wait 30 minutes to get an opponent. Since this was around 9 pm in Europe there's no reason why no one else would be playing at the time. Mystery solved. Since Huk is in fact not in GM league on his European account (he's not in any league, he still haven't played his placement match for season 2) there's nothing to contradict that Huk's MMR may in fact be (vastly?) superior to TLO who is currently in the #1 spot on the European ladder. There is clearly a bug that's causing Huk to not get matched.
So what was HuK's rank in GM league last season on his EU account, if you remember?
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Actually I clearly can see a point why GM's should not share their accounts with each other. The timing of the call was evidently off so it doesnt matter whom he was playing at the moment.
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Blizzard, you are morons on this one. Still love you, but, please. Get real rather than more control freak greedy. Calling people? Calling tourny organizers to tattle and threaten? Tourny organizers who are doing such a great service to your game? Players who are doing such a great service to your game? Quit flexing your muscles, you look like an idiot who should be embarassed for the unthinking brutish behavior.
This is such an abuse of their fans, who create the glory that is TL. Because this whole stunt was just for publicity, targeting big name players at a big tourny, so people would hear about it here on TL. Why don't you just make a post on TL and tell everybody that you're dicks next time, blizz. It's still a lot less insulting to us than this pseudo-sly, making an example of people bs. As if anyone doesn't know what you're doing. We're friggin nerds.
Making an example out of your most loyal supporters, while exploiting your fan communities for the stunt so that word travels is shameful if only based on intellect. If.
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On June 26 2011 19:52 paralleluniverse wrote:
So what was HuK's rank in GM league last season on his EU account, if you remember?
GM league didn't exist last season.
Huk stopped laddering on his European account when he was the #1 ranked diamond player in the world. This was before Masters league as well.
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On June 25 2011 11:57 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 11:47 UFO wrote:On June 25 2011 11:40 Ballistixz wrote:On June 25 2011 11:38 Greatness wrote:On June 25 2011 11:36 Ballistixz wrote:
whats funny is that since HuK and TLO are top pro players ppl start a riot and rage call blizzard idiots. but if this happens to anyone else no one would bat an eye.
rules are rules and not even pro players are immune from those rules. ppl need to understand that..... Where's the line then? Remember when we didn't have to pay for more than one account for cross server play, or unlimited account creation? Now we have to PAY to change names? And now we can't share what WE bought? Ridiculous. yes u bought the game, but there is something called the ToS and you agreed tho those terms and are bound to those rules. pro players should not be exempt from that. We agreed on those terms because we didn`t have a goddamn choice, other than do it or not play the game. We didn`t agree that these terms were moral, ethical, rightful and correct. We didn`t have a fucking choice. Now you support dysfunctional decisions that come out of these "rules" because you believe "rules are rules and need to be followed !" - but you don`t fucking see where they come from and what purpose they do serve and what purpose they should serve and how they contribute to the well-being and benefit of the whole community and everyone else. playing starcraft is not a RIGHT. you always have the choice to not play the game. blizzard's decision to censure huk/tlo for something that is pretty innocuous is laughable, but your logic is terrible.
I really dislike it when someone doesn`t explain anything and just leaves at "your logic is terrible" or other baseless critical statement of this kind. This is not discussing, this is flaming.
"playing starcraft is not a RIGHT" - yes, its not a right. However, you seem to misunderstand what was meant.
Living in a society built on values of integrity, unity, equality, honesty, understanding, care, good-will, benevolence, intelligence, wisdom, harmony is not a RIGHT either, yes ?
I believe it is a right. I believe it is a birthright of every human being which was and is denied for everyone.
playing starcraft is not a RIGHT. you always have the choice to not play the game.
Its like you bought an excellent bread and you discover it is, like other breads, buttered with mud. You eat it because you are hungry and there is nothing better of this kind than that. You don`t have to eat it but there is nothing better for you out there and you happen to be a lover of bread. You wonder - WHY THE FUCK does it have to be buttered with mud. It would be so much better without it. So why ?
Then you discover that it doesn`t have to be this way. It is because there is a deep dysfunction within a society. A conflicted, disharmonious, separatist society deeply infected with the sickness of disillusioned ego and heartless, pointless, animal-like competition.
So you no longer accept this. You don`t agree with this. You don`t want your bread to be buttered with mud any longer. No more.
Now people like you come and say "Its your choice, you don`t have to eat bread if you don`t like it", often not without spicing it with criticism or ridicule. "Eating bread is not your right. You don`t like mud, you don`t have to eat bread".
There doesn`t have to be any mud on a bread but there is - there is because people in power can decide it will be this way. And some people actually support it. "eating bread is not a right" after all. Don`t eat it if you don`t like it.
"Go and choose from other breads, which are equally tainted with some kind of shit or are much worse, or don`t eat bread at all, it really is an authentic kind of choice" - is what those people say.
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hope blizzard will fix the ladder problem for huk fast, pretty fun he owned the ladder so hard though
wonder what blizzard will do next or when something like this happens again
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Back in the SCBW days, blizzard used to be a company you could respect. Now they are acting like a shitty company they used to stand out from.
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The reason why Huk's waiting time seems so long to him is because he himself is so small.
Relativity dudes!!!
BAM!*cough*
+ Show Spoiler +
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Kind of sad when you compare this to Riot, who put the LoL Dreamhack stream in the fucking game. As a result it was one of the largest eSports events in history with well over 100k viewers the whole time.
Blizzard would never do something like that. If they did it would have a massive impact on growing eSports, considering the enormous amount of people who would log in and see it. Instead they do this. Pretty disappointing honestly.
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blizzard really have more importamt things to pay atention to theyr game instead of bother with 2 of most know PRO players that makes they game so popular, sharinh acc to a pratice custon game, or even it was played in ladder....
this is so ridiculous... fxoteam use an acc for the hole team pratice in korea, will blizzard ban they for sharing too?
if tasteless travel to his home and play on day9 will they have the same response?
just a stupid move by blizzard that mae they look pretty bad on looks of game fan`s
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Should Pros be omitted from the same standards the rest of us are set to?
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On June 26 2011 19:17 bradfield wrote:
Isn't every foreigner playing in Korea committing an illegal act, since they need to use someone's else SSN to make their own SC2KR account?
Also, on Team Leagues, players from the same team play on the same account. Whose account is that? Does blizzard call Mr.Chae over that?
Maybe a 'abuse of service', but not an illegal act. But that was probably what you ment. Blizzard can break their own rules, naturally. Or be favorable to one party but not the other, if they so choose.
A TOS is an agreement between to parties, not a law above two parties. Also, such agreements might be illegal/invalid or partially illegal/invalid depending on your country and what's in it the TOS - and that country's existing laws, if it was to come before a court. In this case the law could enforce the TOS on the user or dismiss it.
Note: I don't how the process in which a TOS is validated or if the TOS for starcraft 2 is different between counties.
But I don't actually think the TOS is valid in Denmark because I don't actually sign the TOS when I buy the game. I don't think it should be, anyway. It's just wrong.
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At least Blizzard did not ban TLO's account without warning.
For sure there is a problem here (regarding the extremely long search times), but how should Blizzard fix this ? If you have 10 over-the-top players that do not play at the same time, who should the current playing one be matched against ? Extremely unfavored opponents ? No idea :D I think not, but I have no better solution.
I personally suffer up to 15 minutes search times in 3v3, making me play it less (sometimes my games take less time than the waiting time !!!) because it is kind of frustrating to have to wait that long. But that's another story
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On June 27 2011 06:57 Spacedude wrote:
But I don't actually think the TOS is valid in Denmark because I don't actually sign the TOS when I buy the game. I don't think it should be, anyway. It's just wrong.
This is actually true for most European countries. The contract details had to be known in full before payment or it is invalid. That's the reason why in Austria/Germany EULAs and similar stuff is a one click ignore thing. It's a customer protection mechanism against fraud and it's good that way.
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On June 26 2011 13:04 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:23 starcraft911 wrote:On June 26 2011 05:35 Spacedude wrote:On June 26 2011 04:52 starcraft911 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:46 Spacedude wrote:On June 26 2011 04:34 JustPassingBy wrote:
Suddenly a spark of doubt coming within me whether it is really good to create a gigantic esports scene where one company has so much absolut power. They can basically shut down whole tournaments and end careers on a whim if they feel like it. This how I very much feel. I wish that e-sports communites had the ability and resources to make their own open source game, even if this is totally unrealistic. Starcraft 2 is owned by Blizzard and they can mostly do whatever they want to, even if the whole communities disagrees with what they did. It's their house and we're just guests. But that's the best deal there's is, atm. I think you're under the delusion that you're in the majority when you think that having a player abuse the GM system by playing on another persons ID to keep them from dropping to masters is a 'fair' thing. Maybe among the TL community the vocal majority supports this, but i believe casuals and those who care about the integrity of the ladder are more inclined to side with blizzard on this one. I think suggesting that blizzard would, "shut down whole tournaments" is fear mongering and is completely irrelevant to this situation. It's like you took all the facts and disregarded the ones you don't agree with. It's got nothing to do with simply sharing accounts. It's entirely about their GM system and the upcoming tournament. I'm not sure why that's so difficult to grasp. Maybe basing a tournament of the ladder system is then the problem in question here? If you base a tournament on something which very nature allows for account sharing (and rightly so) then isn't this the real problem here? I don't know if the majority shares my opinions or not - and nor do I care for it. My opinions ain't based upon how many simply agrees with them or not. If hacker ruins the game for others he should be banned, but is account sharing the same thing in nature? I don't believe so. It's blizzard own fault for using the ladder system this way, not the account sharer. The scenario that the OP painted was a half truth in that Huk wasn't using TLO's account to simply warmup because his main ID was unable to find games as stated. If you watch Huk's stream you'd know that he had been using TLO's ID to keep him from dropping out of GM while TLO recovered. While this is a noble thing for Huk to do, Blizzard sees it as undermining their ladder at a time when doing so is particularly bad. If you were one of the masters players who are 1700+ and had a goal to get into grandmasters but because the system is inherently flawed and allows inactive people with MUCH lower MMR rating to sit in GM when players with higher MMR are stuck in masters how then do you think you'd feel about this? Wow he actually did that? I'd be counting myself lucky it was just a warning... I mean nice thing to do sure but yeah, that's not how the ladder is supposed to work
Are we even going to talk about the elephant in the room, which is that we're getting conflicting stores, all of which don't make sense.
"One was playing for the other to keep him GM as he hurt his hand and could not play". Learn to play with your other hand, possibly, or just tank on one or two matches to stay active. If this story is true then they knowingly broke the ToU to 'help out a buddy". They know that playing someone else's account to keep them in place is wrong. I can also see why this story could have merit as they both probably find it important to stay in GM with their accounts.
"One's MMR was too high so he borrowed the other account to play". This also breaks the rules, because you have someone who WILL distort what is factual about who's better and worse on ladder. It'd be like having an amateur 100m dash and then getting an olympic sprinter to run for you and get you first prize. It totally devalues the concept and reason for the race to exist.
There is an amendment to the above story about how "he was only playing customs with it, so it doesn't matter". If he was only playing customs to keep up his skill level, he can do that on HIS OWN ACCOUNT even though his MMR is too high. MMR has no effect on the ability to find decent players online to custom with. In fact, I see people offering to play others, or asking to be played, or calling people out to play them all the time in Zerg Strat. They cant manipulate the ladder to get that match with predetermined players, so I'm quite sure that HuK/TLO would be able to do the same thing as these people, create a custom game with two good players facing off.
So realistically, if One of them borrowed the other account because his MMR was too high, its because he wanted to play ladder on SOMEONE ELSES account. Because MMR dont matter on custom.
In the former scenario, why would they do this when its not truly necessary and only opens them both up to risk, as has been proven?
In the latter, why would they do this when its not truly necessary and only opens them both up to risk, as proven?
So it doesnt make sense any way I can figure it.
Blizzard has a supposed no tolerance policy, and should have banned them, it would have been no big deal, because they're telling everyone with this precedent that they won't. Its not like HuK/TLO cant buy another copy of SC2 for breaking the rules.
..And about the absolute power, its up to legislation and the people to fight big corporations tooth and nail for their consumer rights. go ahead and google blizzard boycott, they've squashed a reverse engineered program called Bnetd, which allowed people to host their own servers to play the game. How does Blizzard lose money on that? They have less traffic to deal with, and you dont pay monthly, so for blizzard its a loss. Also there's server maintenance. a consumer who bought the game is shouldering all the costs by making their own SC server, yet bliz shut them down?
And the kicker is this: This technology and what the consumers did is COMPLETELY LEGAL. There is stuff even in the DMCA that protects this kind of stuff, and yet blizzard is somehow using lawyers and actual legal judges to keep this thing squashed? How is that possible without corruption, and how is corruption possible when people are taking big corporations to the mat for abusing citizens rights? Obvious answer is possibly what was stated above, the two big names here got warned to set an example for noone else to even think about it, out of fear.
What Im saying is Blizzard has all the power because we're letting them have it and not pursuing other totally legal options of our own to have our own tournaments. they even put a clause in the ToU stating you cant run a tournament unless they explicitly allow it by telling them about it and going through all these hoops. But that ToU wouldn't hold up in court whatsoever. Because as long as everyone there bought their own copy of the game, there's no legal objection that can be raised.
People need to start hosting their own tournaments with private servers, something which is not illegal unless SC2 was made pay to play, and not be bullied by Vivendi/Activision.
On June 26 2011 07:27 Spacedude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:55 Zato-1 wrote:
On the one hand... account sharing is really innocuous, unless you're talking about cheating at an event or something of the kind, so I wish Blizzard weren't such hardasses on the issue.
On the other hand, Blizzard is completely within their rights to demand players not share accounts- it's in the TOS. So being warned by Blizzard and then disregarding their warning is just really dumb; think of what happens here in TeamLiquid when a mod warns you to stop doing something and then you go and do it again immediately after :p But are they really within their rights to close an account because of sharing? Let's say that such a case was to come to court in Denmark (liberal country) then I doubt very much that Blizzard would win said case. I'm no lawyer, but I do believe that the TOS would come into conflict with some of our basic rights, which the TOS simply connot set aside. But this is natually highly unlikely seeing as the game is only about 25-30 quid. But isn't this really one of Blizzard greatest strengths? Who have the time/resources/willingness to do such a thing? It'd be ridiculous. I'm just glad that practicality protect us in such cases, if nothing else. Now, you might say to me: ''why even care about such a little issue?''. Well, because nothing is set in stone (people's hard earned rights over hundred of years) and because small steps adds up. What will be the next little/tiny thing corporations or politicians, ect, can get away with that will in the long run undermind our rights? It might be small, seemingly reasonable things, but what will it lead to? Words of wisdom: 'Question everything'. Note: I'm not anti-corporations or anti-politicians at all (that's just dumb). Corporations have rights to, natually, and do a lot of good for us/society. I'm putting things a bit on a sword's tip here, therefore you might get such silly ideas. :p
Thats true, the larger and more powerful corporations become, the more money needed to fight them until a regular consumer cant do anything alone, and it insulates the corporation from the pinpricks of regular joe. Whats needed is a class action suit of a million users all putting 1 dollar into a pot for a team of lawyers.
Of course we could all save vastly on our money by realizing the poor quality of the goods we're being sold (sc2 and WoW are quality products, but the ToU and the other nasty junk tacked on are horrid), and being involved enough consumers to say "enough is enough" and not buy their product. Thats how companies fail, or change their policies. If they stand to lose money or go broke.
On June 26 2011 04:46 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:18 Spacedude wrote:On June 26 2011 03:37 Prfx wrote:On June 26 2011 03:34 Erik.TheRed wrote:
LOL at HuK wearing TLO's shirt today. I wonder if that is in the TOS as well? nazgul is already on the phone... + Show Spoiler + Indeed this is absurd. I don't give a damned for what the TOS says about account sharing. Because there's laws that outlaws a puny TOS. There's something that's more important than some TOS could ever be, this including official laws that's oppressive, and that's our 'common sense' rights. Freedom rights. We should not simply accept a TOS as a higher law, which it is not. If all companies included a TOS that was oppressive to our common sense rights then we simply couldn't buy anything without selling a bit of ourselves in the process. But we all have needs so we'd do it anyways, naturally. See the picture I'm painting here? There's just some things we as a people should never accept. You're definitely the Martin Luther King of Starcraft users individual rights. Get fired up. We ain't sitting in the back of the fuckin bus sharing accounts god dammit. I won't stand for this shit.
And I completely agree with spacedudes eloquent polemic. He's completely right, and consumers have so many avenues for enforcing this with people power.
http://www.trustlink.org/Reviews/Blizzard-Entertainment-205737049
guys might wanna reevaluate this company.
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I think that it's kind of ridiculous that it was even thought that TLO's account should be banned, or that it's wrong for Huk to be on it. I am glad that they did not just blindly ban the account, and had the decency to do contact the players before they did so. I believe that account sharing is a problem, and there's not much of a way to fix it besides how they are currently taking care of it, but the it shouldn't be an issue for such high players, especially when they are on the same team and just attempting to help eachother.
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EPT
