It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned.
I don't think any of Destiny's fans would claim he is among the top in the world.
And regardless, what difference does it make? I mean, what does it have to do with how you feel about him, his use of language, or the complexity-root situation?
Like, because he's not a top player, therefore he's not allowed to use the word nigger, and therefore he does use the word nigger, I don't like him, therefore complexity wouldn't want him, and black people would beat him up, but Idra is good?
He plays with the best players, he's winning some games against the absolute best players, I don't know how else you'd describe him. He's only been on teams and competing for a few months, yet he can make a big enough impact for players from other servers want to come practice with him.
Huk wouldn't come to NA to waste his time on some nobody.
Destiny winning some games against the absolute best players? Can you link me to the Destiny vs oGsMC and ST_bomber vods? Thanks.
Obviously if your definition of "really good" is beating MC and Bomber, whereas someone else's is being able to beat most of the top NA players, there's going to be a tough time communicating. Neither of you guys are even saying different things, you're both just sloppy with your wording. Its not like its even the sorta thing that you can misinterpret. Results are results. Its just a matter of how each of you judge the results..
He said the absolute best players in the world. Those were his words.
Way to completely miss his point.
I'm saying he plays against some of the absolute best players, playing against Huk and Idra on his stream were the only examples I gave. You want to see replays of him against Koreans. I don't know if he's played against bomber or MC, I guess I could check around.
In a ladder setting which is completely irrelevant anyway, post some tournament results then call him the one of the best players in the world. Desrow beat Idra on the ladder, maybe we should fly him to the next GSL qualifier.
I'll say "Destiny is among the best players in the world." Is that better? And I never said he played Huk in a ladder setting.
MC is a total Bonjwa, I'd even say he's the best right now, but the distance in skill isn't exponentially higher than that of Destiny or Desrow, it's just barely high enough for him to win tournaments over other players. I think people get so lost in the usual competitive crowd that they can't picture new people breaking into their scene and beginning to make names for themselves.
Ok, I think it's about time for you to stop posting ridiculous shit. First, you call Destiny one of the top players in the world, then you call MC a total Bonjwa?... To begin with, you should start to be more objective and then, you should clear out the meaning of TOP and Bonjwa for yourself, because now, you are placing yourself in a very awkard position.
Well, this is awkard.
The #1 player by winnings and overall tournament wins being called a "Bonjwa" is just too ridiculous. You're totally right to get so mad about that. And I guess GM isn't reserved for the best players, after all. Maybe I should clear out the meaning of "top" 200 before I assume that it's actually the "top" 200.
I think you don't understand the major difference between GM ( TOP 200) in one continent, and being one of the top players in the world. If you think that by being ranked 499 in Global GM league(http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/310150/ROOTDestiny) can get you 'title': "one of the top players in the world", then you are absolutely right. But somehow I think it doesn't.
I'm not mad, bro.
You sure sound like you are. According to liquipedia, he's looking pretty Bonjwa. 2 GSLs and a Dreamhack win aren't considered titles?
edit: To clarify: I was saying Bonjwa as an expression at the time. I didn't realize he was actually close to BW Bonjwa status until now...
On June 28 2011 06:52 Olinim wrote: [quote] Destiny winning some games against the absolute best players? Can you link me to the Destiny vs oGsMC and ST_bomber vods? Thanks.
Obviously if your definition of "really good" is beating MC and Bomber, whereas someone else's is being able to beat most of the top NA players, there's going to be a tough time communicating. Neither of you guys are even saying different things, you're both just sloppy with your wording. Its not like its even the sorta thing that you can misinterpret. Results are results. Its just a matter of how each of you judge the results..
He said the absolute best players in the world. Those were his words.
Way to completely miss his point.
I'm saying he plays against some of the absolute best players, playing against Huk and Idra on his stream were the only examples I gave. You want to see replays of him against Koreans. I don't know if he's played against bomber or MC, I guess I could check around.
In a ladder setting which is completely irrelevant anyway, post some tournament results then call him the one of the best players in the world. Desrow beat Idra on the ladder, maybe we should fly him to the next GSL qualifier.
I'll say "Destiny is among the best players in the world." Is that better? And I never said he played Huk in a ladder setting.
MC is a total Bonjwa, I'd even say he's the best right now, but the distance in skill isn't exponentially higher than that of Destiny or Desrow, it's just barely high enough for him to win tournaments over other players. I think people get so lost in the usual competitive crowd that they can't picture new people breaking into their scene and beginning to make names for themselves.
Ok, I think it's about time for you to stop posting ridiculous shit. First, you call Destiny one of the top players in the world, then you call MC a total Bonjwa?... To begin with, you should start to be more objective and then, you should clear out the meaning of TOP and Bonjwa for yourself, because now, you are placing yourself in a very awkard position.
Well, this is awkard.
The #1 player by winnings and overall tournament wins being called a "Bonjwa" is just too ridiculous. You're totally right to get so mad about that. And I guess GM isn't reserved for the best players, after all. Maybe I should clear out the meaning of "top" 200 before I assume that it's actually the "top" 200.
I think you don't understand the major difference between GM ( TOP 200) in one continent, and being one of the top players in the world. If you think that by being ranked 499 in Global GM league(http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/310150/ROOTDestiny) can get you 'title': "one of the top players in the world", then you are absolutely right. But somehow I think it doesn't.
I'm not mad, bro.
You sure sound like you are. According to liquipedia, he's looking pretty Bonjwa. 2 GSLs and a Dreamhack win aren't considered titles?
On June 28 2011 06:52 Olinim wrote: [quote] Destiny winning some games against the absolute best players? Can you link me to the Destiny vs oGsMC and ST_bomber vods? Thanks.
Obviously if your definition of "really good" is beating MC and Bomber, whereas someone else's is being able to beat most of the top NA players, there's going to be a tough time communicating. Neither of you guys are even saying different things, you're both just sloppy with your wording. Its not like its even the sorta thing that you can misinterpret. Results are results. Its just a matter of how each of you judge the results..
He said the absolute best players in the world. Those were his words.
Way to completely miss his point.
I'm saying he plays against some of the absolute best players, playing against Huk and Idra on his stream were the only examples I gave. You want to see replays of him against Koreans. I don't know if he's played against bomber or MC, I guess I could check around.
In a ladder setting which is completely irrelevant anyway, post some tournament results then call him the one of the best players in the world. Desrow beat Idra on the ladder, maybe we should fly him to the next GSL qualifier.
I'll say "Destiny is among the best players in the world." Is that better? And I never said he played Huk in a ladder setting.
MC is a total Bonjwa, I'd even say he's the best right now, but the distance in skill isn't exponentially higher than that of Destiny or Desrow, it's just barely high enough for him to win tournaments over other players. I think people get so lost in the usual competitive crowd that they can't picture new people breaking into their scene and beginning to make names for themselves.
Ok, I think it's about time for you to stop posting ridiculous shit. First, you call Destiny one of the top players in the world, then you call MC a total Bonjwa?... To begin with, you should start to be more objective and then, you should clear out the meaning of TOP and Bonjwa for yourself, because now, you are placing yourself in a very awkard position.
Well, this is awkard.
The #1 player by winnings and overall tournament wins being called a "Bonjwa" is just too ridiculous. You're totally right to get so mad about that. And I guess GM isn't reserved for the best players, after all. Maybe I should clear out the meaning of "top" 200 before I assume that it's actually the "top" 200.
I think you don't understand the major difference between GM ( TOP 200) in one continent, and being one of the top players in the world. If you think that by being ranked 499 in Global GM league(http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/310150/ROOTDestiny) can get you 'title': "one of the top players in the world", then you are absolutely right. But somehow I think it doesn't.
I'm not mad, bro.
You sure sound like you are. According to liquipedia, he's looking pretty Bonjwa. 2 GSLs and a Dreamhack win aren't considered titles?
On June 28 2011 09:06 Belial88 wrote: Like, because he's not a top player, therefore he's not allowed to use the word nigger, and therefore he does use the word nigger, I don't like him, therefore complexity wouldn't want him, and black people would beat him up, but Idra is good?
Thank you for a concise, complete summary of the thread to date.
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Can we get a mod to change the title of the thread to "Destiny leaves Complexity" or "Destiny parts ways with Complexity"? There are way too many people that don't understand the meaning of being "released" from a contract.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
You are 100% wrong if you don't think it's used as a pejorative when both parties are black.The entire basis of your argument, right there, is just dead wrong.
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Actually, here's the link:
The word is currently largely used to describe, not black people in general, but a TYPE of black person. If you call someone a redneck, you're not expressing bigotry against white people in general - you're classifying an individual based on their behavior and attitude.
edit: Here's another wonderful comedy bit (Carlin + Pryor spliced together) that addresses the issue:
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
Context is the whole point.
If a white guy says "you nigger" to a black guy he is probably racist and trying to express the fact that he is racist in order to offend. Similarly, if a white guy was talking to me (I am also white) and referred to blacks as "niggers" I would probably assume he was doing so because he was racist and wanted other people to know that. So I would be offended in that situation, not by the word itself, but by what I thought the intended message behind the word was.
In contrast to those examples, if a white guy said "what up my nigga" to another white guy I would assume he was joking around and not be offended. If a black guy referred to other blacks that way I would also not be offended, because I would probably not assume he hated his own race. It's all about intended meaning. Word choice is only a part of that puzzle.
When we get angry about words being used we miss the whole point. If anything we should be angry about racist or other offensive ideas being expressed, regardless of the words being used to express them. Making it all about a word carries the implication that it's okay to express racist ideas as long as you do it with flowery language. And I'm not saying you should never be offended when someone says "nigger", because it's very often used to express racism. Just be clear on the distinction.
On the subject of racism and the usage of words to define someone as a racist.
Hitler was a very racist man (anyone can agree with that) however because he was a political figure he still upheld a figure. Therefore he didn't go around cussing out the jewish people. He may have referred to them as the "problem", but his ability to talk allowed him to bypass insulting the Jewish people directly.
Just because someone can "clean up" their language and avoid insulting everyone, doesn't mean that they still can't act or be specifically racist in other ways.
Hitler may not of insulting verbally many Jewish people, but the holocaust I believe qualifies as racism.
I will probably get flamed because the holocaust is different than the racial comments towards the black community. Gays, Black, Jewish, and any defected humans of any nature in Hitler's eyes were involved in the holocaust.
I find it extremely sickening to hear people complain about the language we used. If Destiny or any other person in this world were to discriminate a person based on their differences, then I would consider them a racist. But Destiny is the anti-racist, he doesn't care if you are a girl or a boy, gay, lesbian, brown, white, black, asian, Canadian(maybealittle), Norwegian, or Russian. He doesn't care, if you are in his personal niche of friends he will call you nigger, or homie, or broskie, or brohan, or w/e he thinks up that is suitable. If he was to go out in his neighborhood and start calling everyone a nigger he'd probably get taken out by a gang of people. But that is because he would mean it offensively, you know why? Because he would walk up to a group of black people, say "whats up my niggas" and they would tell him "never say that again to us" and he would say "you got it". It isn't that he is conforming to them. He is weighing out the pros and cons. It could be a pro to be able to freely say that word in front of these specific groups of people, but the con is that you'd probably get curbed stomped. If he was to walk up to a group of white guys and say "Whats up my niggas" they wouldn't care, if they did care, they would say "don't say that to use again." In which he wouldn't because he understands that there is a time and pace for everything and the same pros and cons apply to that group regardless of their color. If people are offended they will let Steven know; by leaving his channel or by telling him. If Debo told Steven not to call him a nigger, Steven probably wouldn't call him a nigger, doesn't mean he would never say the word Nigger again.
Basically what I am saying is:
Destiny isn't racist because he says words, sure he can be offensive at times but who gives a fuck? People are only racist when: Noun: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Does Destiny believe he is better or superior to any other person based on their race? Certainly not. You are all very foolish and very childish to believe that the person delivering the message at such a mediocre level to shape and form his entire message to fit the crowds pleasure. Hell even Jesus couldn't please the masses, he drove away Demons and Priests, you can't please everyone no matter how good or bad your message is.
Hope you read this in its entirety Destiny I am on your side!
I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Yeah, I have heard the Chris Rock one before but I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the word that way outside of a comedy routine. The common, day-to-day usage between two friends definitely does not really carry that kind of meaning with it.
Also:
Anyway, I don't think Chris Rock is really a great authority on contemporary linguistics.
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Why?
I don't know - I didn't start the conversation. People were already talking about before I got here.
On June 28 2011 11:47 Deindar wrote: I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
Saying something racist doesn't mean you are racist but it doesn't you should say it, either.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Yeah, I have heard the Chris Rock one before but I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the word that way outside of a comedy routine. The common, day-to-day usage between two friends definitely does not really carry that kind of meaning with it.
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Why?
I don't know - I didn't start the conversation. People were already talking about before I got here.
On June 28 2011 11:47 Deindar wrote: I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
Saying something racist doesn't mean you are racist but it doesn't you should say it, either.
So what are you trying to say? Cause if context can change the meaning of the word then i am pretty sure context is not racist so it works with every one. So then what you were saying is invalid. Context trumps the word. As long as its not used in a racist way and with respect.
EPT
