It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned.
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
bahl sofs tiil,
Thank you for this post. You've articulated much of what has been on my mind. I haven't been able to find the words to get this across. While I am not an advocate of political correctness for the sake of political correctness, I agree that the history of the use of the word cannot be forgotten. Similarly, it matters who speaks the word.
Just because an individual claims to be using a word differently or in a different, current, new context, does not mean that the original pathology (white dominance of blacks through slavery) has been resolved.
I realize the thread has become somewhat derailed and I am responding to that derailment. Ultimately, to relate it back to Complexity, a professional organization has a right to demand standards from their members. I work for a University, and, as such, I am required to follow a certain code of conduct. The more mainstreamed that SCII becomes, the more the burden of professionalism will be felt by those seeking to be members of teams. I think this is good; others will, no doubt, see it as a limitation on individuality.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Yeah, I have heard the Chris Rock one before but I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the word that way outside of a comedy routine. The common, day-to-day usage between two friends definitely does not really carry that kind of meaning with it.
Also:
Anyway, I don't think Chris Rock is really a great authority on contemporary linguistics.
On June 28 2011 10:38 badcnr wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:01 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 27 2011 15:20 Destiny wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:29 Lysenko wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
On June 28 2011 10:49 Belial88 wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:08 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Why?
I don't know - I didn't start the conversation. People were already talking about before I got here.
On June 28 2011 11:47 Deindar wrote: I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
Saying something racist doesn't mean you are racist but it doesn't you should say it, either.
So what are you trying to say? Cause if context can change the meaning of the word then i am pretty sure context is not racist so it works with every one. So then what you were saying is invalid. Context trumps the word. As long as its not used in a racist way and with respect.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Yeah, I have heard the Chris Rock one before but I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the word that way outside of a comedy routine. The common, day-to-day usage between two friends definitely does not really carry that kind of meaning with it.
Anyway, I don't think Chris Rock is really a great authority on contemporary linguistics.
On June 28 2011 10:38 badcnr wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:01 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 27 2011 15:20 Destiny wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:29 Lysenko wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
On June 28 2011 10:49 Belial88 wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:08 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Why?
I don't know - I didn't start the conversation. People were already talking about before I got here.
On June 28 2011 11:47 Deindar wrote: I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
Saying something racist doesn't mean you are racist but it doesn't you should say it, either.
So what are you trying to say? Cause if context can change the meaning of the word then i am pretty sure context is not racist so it works with every one. So then what you were saying is invalid. Context trumps the word. As long as its not used in a racist way and with respect.
When talking about racist speech yeah the race of the speaker is going to be part of context. You're trying to argue this too litererly, I understand you wanting to defend destiny and all, but really trying to look up context to attempt to prove a point like this?
Can you REALLY not see how it's different for a black person to call anotehr person a nigga or a nigger, than it is for a white person?
Old Story is old. I knew it I looked weeks ago on the coL Page and Destiny wasn't in the Roster and on Destinys Stream there was still a ROOT banner plus CatZ and co. changed theirs names into coL but not Destiny.
On June 28 2011 11:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote: I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
Well, you're wrong. Not only does context change the meaning of a word, words actually have no meaning at all without context.
On June 28 2011 13:43 hunts wrote: When talking about racist speech yeah the race of the speaker is going to be part of context. You're trying to argue this too litererly, I understand you wanting to defend destiny and all, but really trying to look up context to attempt to prove a point like this?
Can you REALLY not see how it's different for a black person to call anotehr person a nigga or a nigger, than it is for a white person?
Context has nothing to do with race. Maybe the physical characteristics of the person matter in face to face. I totally agree a white not going up to black people if he dont know them and their views walk up and say that word. But thats respect. You wouldnt walk in a job interview shouting the term. But if you know the people or if its not face to face using the word in a context that doesnt come of racial is not racist. So your telling me not to take it literally then dont take the n-word and the history so literally.
On June 28 2011 11:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote: I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
Well, you're wrong. Not only does context change the meaning of a word, words actually have no meaning at all without context.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? (snip) They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. (snip) Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
Chris Rock had a bit once (as well as other comedians, and many others, I'm sure), where he talks about the use of the word nigger, and what it means, but basically the bit boiled down to this: There are black guys, and then there are niggers, and nobody likes a nigger. Basically, comparing the word "nigger" to "redneck" or any other low-class term.
Yeah, I have heard the Chris Rock one before but I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the word that way outside of a comedy routine. The common, day-to-day usage between two friends definitely does not really carry that kind of meaning with it.
Anyway, I don't think Chris Rock is really a great authority on contemporary linguistics.
On June 28 2011 10:38 badcnr wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:01 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 27 2011 15:20 Destiny wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:29 Lysenko wrote:
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote: Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
Then you should learn the history behind this word.
People have said that they are not using it racially, that it is just a general pejorative, but where does the word derive its pejorative qualities? What about this word makes it suitable to be insulting? The Latin root word simply means "black". How is that suitable for an insult? Using it in a pejorative way is disrespectful because it assumes that that having dark skin or having qualities stereotypically associated with those who have dark skin is bad. Using it toward a white person is akin to saying "you're like a black person!" and meaning it as an insult. Without the hateful, racist history, "nigger" would simply be word used to describe people with dark skin. There is no benign, non-racist way to use the word in a pejorative sense and a light skinned person cannot use the word simply to refer to a dark skinned person, because of the history behind it.
On the language changing: Language is a social, collective function and the connotations and history of a word are decided by that collective. Our society today almost exclusively considers the word "nigger" to still be a hateful word with a hateful history and hateful meanings. One person cannot simply claim "I am using it differently" and expect all that to disappear. That is not how language works.
So, the question has been raised, what about black people? Why can they use the word and have it not be racist? Remember, "nigger" originally started as simply a descriptor of people with dark skin, specifically of African descent in English. So, when a person who is himself black uses the word, the context becomes entirely different (and not due to any non-verbal cues, such as body language) and this context lacks the hateful history. They're not using it as a pejorative. They are simply using it as a descriptor of someone with whom they share a common trait or a connection. Another of example of this same principle is a Japanese man in blackface. Without the history of racism that blackface has in the USA, it would not be offensive and it is not offensive in a culture and society where that history does not exist. It is simply a man doing an impression of a man with darker skin. Once we examine the meaning behind the word, we can see that, from a black man to a black man, it takes on a very similar meaning as "brother".
So your saying using it in a different context doesnt change the meaning of word or does? Cause i am pretty sure you agreed that context does.... Your kind of changing everything you say to best fit your argument. Why not just say that you view the word like that then its not facts your pointing out just opinions.
I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
On June 28 2011 10:49 Belial88 wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:08 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On June 28 2011 10:04 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what does this have to do with Destiny and Complexity?
What's your point?
And you do realize that Destiny has only raised the word up as in have a discussion on the word. The same way you have, actually. Funny how you demonize him for doing the same thing you're doing.
I haven't mentioned Destiny once. I am talking about language.
Why?
I don't know - I didn't start the conversation. People were already talking about before I got here.
On June 28 2011 11:47 Deindar wrote: I hate to bump this thread, but I want to kind of reiterate what some other people said. Saying the word nigger in a joking manner doesn't make you a racist. Saying it with the intent to disrespect and injure does. Can we all clearly see which one Destiny is?
Saying something racist doesn't mean you are racist but it doesn't you should say it, either.
So what are you trying to say? Cause if context can change the meaning of the word then i am pretty sure context is not racist so it works with every one. So then what you were saying is invalid. Context trumps the word. As long as its not used in a racist way and with respect.
On June 28 2011 11:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote: I don't think I have ever said that context can't change the meaning of a word, have I? I certainly didn't mean to.
Well, you're wrong. Not only does context change the meaning of a word, words actually have no meaning at all without context.
On June 28 2011 09:06 Belial88 wrote: I don't think any of Destiny's fans would claim he is among the top in the world.
And in regards to this... Have you, uhh... been in his stream lately? 'Cause, man. There are some STUPID people in that chat, seriously.
edit: Re-reading my post, it seems a little like I'm hating on Destiny's ability, which I don't mean to. I love watching him play/stream, and have been using his stream to greatly improve my gameplay over the past few weeks. Just pointing out that yes, there are probably a TON of fanboys that will make that claim.
On June 28 2011 14:15 Destiny wrote: Here's a really, really easy test that puts to rest all of the claims of "context vs diction".
Poll 10,000 people that watch/have watched my stream before when I've said the word "faggot". Ask them the following -
"Do you think Steven honestly believes his opponent is homosexual?"
and
"Do you think Steven hates homosexuals?"
If the answer to the first question is NO, then the consensus is that the word "faggot" does not exclusively refer to homosexuals.
If the answer to the second question is NO, then the consensus is that I'm not using the word "faggot" to degrade a certain group of people.
Context trumps diction.
Please refute this logic, I just can't find a way around it.
Can this please put this stupid little fight to rest now? This was originally a thread about destiny being released from his team, not about racial slurs.
On June 28 2011 14:15 Destiny wrote: Here's a really, really easy test that puts to rest all of the claims of "context vs diction".
Poll 10,000 people that watch/have watched my stream before when I've said the word "faggot". Ask them the following -
"Do you think Steven honestly believes his opponent is homosexual?"
and
"Do you think Steven hates homosexuals?"
If the answer to the first question is NO, then the consensus is that the word "faggot" does not exclusively refer to homosexuals.
If the answer to the second question is NO, then the consensus is that I'm not using the word "faggot" to degrade a certain group of people.
Context trumps diction.
Please refute this logic, I just can't find a way around it.
What about the word "faggot" makes it insulting? It's status as a pejorative in today's modern English comes from its use as a slur towards homosexuals. If it did not have that hateful history, it would not be used as an insult. Using it as an insult carries the connotation that being homosexual or having the characteristics of someone who is homosexual is a bad thing. The history of a word is part of the context.
Can you REALLY not see how it's different for a black person to call anotehr person a nigga or a nigger, than it is for a white person?
First, Destiny has never called anyone a nigger, and even if he has, the context is trolling, not racism.
At worst, Destiny is an insensitive troll that brushes you the wrong way. I mean regardless if you think saying the word nigger as a white person is racist or not (which is hilarious considering how many people are saying how bad the word nigger is, and actually saying it in their post, as if they are somehow saying it differently than Destiny ever has), you KNOW Destiny isn't a racist right? I mean what are you doing, are you so clueless that you think Destiny is a racist?
Because at worst he's just insensitive, maybe even wrong. But he's not obviously not racist, so quit talking about how 'racist' it is to say the word. From where you're from (a rich all-white neighborhood lol?) maybe saying it makes you automatically racist, but in the rest of 2011 America, it's not. It may mean your ignorant, but really, even black people understand you aren't racist if you say the word in any way other than calling a black person that maliciously. I'm sure some may not like it, I'm sure many wouldn't like it, but you aren't going to get beat up for saying the word around black people in a calm discussion if they know you.
It's like arguing the appropriateness of the word FUCK. Yep, it's a pretty bad word to say. We get it.
The whole argument is just so ridiculous. Okay, so it's a racist word with racist roots. But you KNOW Destiny isn't a racist, you aren't that stupid.
As for professionalism in esports, get over yourself. The best professionalism in esports is to make more money, more money, more investment. It's a million times better to have someone saying rough words and inappropriate language, but getting official sponsorship by streaming websites and having thousands upon thousands of viewers and generating large amounts of income, than to not be heard at all but be appropriate.
TLDR: When it comes to professionalism, Destiny is the most professional - Money gets attention, money is nice, and money will attract corporate investment and mainstream acceptance. This is a mature game, and for mature people - just like Chris Rock and the misogynistic Andrew Dice Clay have wide spread appeal and brought lots of attention and fame and money and mainstream acceptance, and everyone understands they aren't for kids.
On June 28 2011 14:15 Destiny wrote: Here's a really, really easy test that puts to rest all of the claims of "context vs diction".
Poll 10,000 people that watch/have watched my stream before when I've said the word "faggot". Ask them the following -
"Do you think Steven honestly believes his opponent is homosexual?"
and
"Do you think Steven hates homosexuals?"
If the answer to the first question is NO, then the consensus is that the word "faggot" does not exclusively refer to homosexuals.
If the answer to the second question is NO, then the consensus is that I'm not using the word "faggot" to degrade a certain group of people.
Context trumps diction.
Please refute this logic, I just can't find a way around it.
Good grief. Nobody cares who you hate. The word is offensive because it is a derogatory way to refer to gay men. If you use the word you're being offensive and hurtful and some people will be offended and hurt by you. This is America so you get to be offensive if you want to. But don't try to pretend that the words "faggot" and "nigger" aren't offensive and hurtful to a great many people. Take responsibility for your own actions.
On June 28 2011 14:15 Destiny wrote: Here's a really, really easy test that puts to rest all of the claims of "context vs diction".
Poll 10,000 people that watch/have watched my stream before when I've said the word "faggot". Ask them the following -
"Do you think Steven honestly believes his opponent is homosexual?"
and
"Do you think Steven hates homosexuals?"
If the answer to the first question is NO, then the consensus is that the word "faggot" does not exclusively refer to homosexuals.
If the answer to the second question is NO, then the consensus is that I'm not using the word "faggot" to degrade a certain group of people.
Context trumps diction.
Please refute this logic, I just can't find a way around it.
Good grief. Nobody cares who you hate. The word is offensive because it is a derogatory way to refer to gay men. If you use the word you're being offensive and hurtful and some people will be offended and hurt by you. This is America so you get to be offensive if you want to. But don't try to pretend that the words "faggot" and "nigger" aren't offensive and hurtful to a great many people. Take responsibility for your own actions.
I don't want to speak for Destiny, but I believe he's said a million times. He doesn't care who he hurts, it isn't his responsibility that his viewers are offended by what he says. If he was preaching to a choir of 6 year olds and was using all this language then yes, it would be his fault that the kids were using such language. But if he is on his stream, talking the way he does, to 3-5k viewers everyday, in which all are 18+ in not mature enough to be online watching starcraft. If you are offended by what he says, then don't watch plain and simple. The hundreth of a penny that you make him lose isn't going to make him lose sleep. Get over yourself you don't even understand your own ideology of the subject.
Racism, and derogatory terms don't necessarily need to offend the particular people being talked about. If I say faggot, if you are a homosexual person doesn't mean you should instantly be offended, if you are offended and I know you personally there is a good chance I won't use the word faggot around you. But when you are talking about 3-5k people and 1 person is offended. Good chance that if that person leaves no one will care.
He's even said so himself, if a mass of people leave over the use of a single term he'll clean up his act. But no one has left on mass yet so why should he change? Why should he conform to the ways you want him to be instead of the way he wants to be. If every person who had a good viewership censored themselves to everyones likings everyones show would be like Teletubbies or something. Or one of those old picture films.
EPT
