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On June 21 2011 22:27 djWHEAT wrote:
It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days.
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there.
It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on.
And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are.
TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
I don't think you are completely right here. It may be wrong to say "Damn, I wish this tournament running right now is a Bo5 or whatever". It isn't wrong to ask tournament organizers to put consideration for Bo5+ finals in future tournaments where the logistics haven't been finalized.
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Yeah totally agree.
Less than BO5 in at least RO8 onwards is kinda lame.
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for Bo3 for dreamhack all the games were crazy...
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Semifinals bo5 would be wonderfull, quarter-fnials....i am not so sure, depends on shedule...we dont want to kill the players dont we?
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i think best of 3 is more than enough and bo7 finals are too much in my opinion.
it's tiring for the players and for the viewers.
and if a caster wants to cast a whole match you get so see much less different players over the course of a day. if the matches are not 30-60min but 60-90min each it's more pleasant for everyone. finals bo5 is okay though.
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It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
It seems to me that fans want to see more games from the top players and right now MLG invests a massive amount of energy running the open bracket because of the huge amount of players in it and the fact that it is double elim.
If MLG got rid of double elimination in the open bracket (nobody has come out of the losers bracket from the open and even been close to competing for top 3 to my recollection, and with korean invites now the chances are basically nonexistant, anyone who stood a chance would get into pool play from the open winners bracket) it would free up a lot of time and effort and give the fans more of what they want, games from the top pros, not the mediocre or semi-pro ones struggling their way through the open tournament losers bracket so they can quickly be eliminated afterwards.
That or cut the amount of total entries in the open, there is no point in sacrificing your high quality games for ones that few people want to see.
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If you don't approve of the format, don't enter the tournament. Simple as that really.
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On June 22 2011 00:05 branflakes14 wrote:
If you don't approve of the format, don't enter the tournament. Simple as that really.
ok?
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On June 22 2011 00:09 Nightfly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 00:05 branflakes14 wrote:
If you don't approve of the format, don't enter the tournament. Simple as that really. ok?
Then this matter is settled! If the players are fine with it, sit back and watch.
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I don't know... I think MLG and NASL are the only ones who need to change their format. Remember it's not just time consuming for the gamers, but the people who run in the background too. I'm pretty sure most of those events also have a certain time that they're supposed to be there.
Ex: MLG is at its venue for the majority of the weekend. I imagine that they would have to have more days as there are more games. MLG had over 200 players for SC2 in the bottom.
NASL just has a weird format and provides a lot of games over the week, as it isn't confined into being over a bunched up days. They mostly rely on the streams it seems.
Dreamhack is probably around in the same position as MLG.
Personally I'd love to see a Bo7 once, but I can understand why most tournaments don't. There are enough tournaments around for everyone to experience anyway to see how certain players perform or not, as I think the longer series of games will only fatigue everyone all round. Bo3's and Bo5's seem fine to me.
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When you bring in the extended series rule that messes everything up. The finals already are a "bo7" some of the time if the people have already played, so what happened then?
I don't know how that would work out.
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The only thing that really needs to be fixed is extended series and Bo5/7's for MLG final. Everything else is fine.
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Yeah after the discussion it seems the only real need is to make semis and finals bo5 (or more but bo5 are nice enough). So I edited OP to clarify.
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In this case, i agree that DH semi-finals should be Bo5 and finals, Bo7. NASL i have no comments cause i dislike it. While MLG is fine with Bo3 since its double elim.
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The problem that could arise comes from matches that takes forever to finish, specifically TvT, for instance Kas vs Naama at the recent DHS. Players are very likely to run out of steam by the time they get to the finals, but having said that, I agree that the pros outweighs the cons.
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9 weeks, 9 important games (18-27 maps) to prepare, to fight and to win. Just to see who are the 8 players to flight around the world to play 1 game (2-3 maps), maybe over in less than half an hour, and be out of tournament.
I think Nasl definitely should have at least bo5 ro16. Hopefully i got my facts straight.
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The OSL only becomes a Bo5 in the Ro4. The MSL only becomes a Bo5 in the Ro8. Having too many games makes them all just blend in. It results in too many games looking the same and feeling the same.
Tournaments like DH and MLG already feel ladderish because the best players inevitably are the ones with the safest builds that work in just about every map. There's a huge difference in the quality of games between them and the GSL, especially as the game becomes less volatile.
And even the GSL suffers from too many games with too little time in between. In the OSL and MSL, players have plenty of time to research their opponent's tendencies, opponent's builds, the maps, the match-up and tailor their builds specifically to their opponent. The result is that even 3-0 beat downs are pretty fun to watch as there is some sort of chess game between their builds.
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I don't think RO8 necessarily justifies a BO5 in a 32-man tourney.
In a 64-man, I could see it, but wouldn't demand it.
Finals should always be a BO7 though... No excuse there.
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On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote:Let's take a look at NASL, Dreamhack, MLG, and to a lesser degree GSL : - NASL :  North American Star League Season 1/Main Bracket3 months of group play, then you travel to USA and you can go back home (and home can be 10000km away) with only one best of 3 played. - MLG : 2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Columbus2 days of intense group play, and again only best of 3s, grand finals included. The last few MLG finals had a duration of less than 30 minutes. - Dreamhack : DreamHack Summer 20112 days of intense group play, then again single elimination best of 3s. Only the grand final is a best of 5. The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame (edit : seems it's not true). The bo3 ro16 of the super tournament were already disappointing, the matchups were big and were deserving bo5.
NASL- Why should this be any different? Don't travel if you're afraid to lose? What about the people who fly to Hawaii to play football? Don't travel because one of the teams is going to lose in a single game? College World Series baseball? My team went through a crazy tournament eventually winning and making it to the world series... and then they lost their first Bo3. This is NASLs first season and they've made tons of changes so far, no doubt more to come.
MLG. You can't blame MLG for the duration of the games. GSL has short games. The 6-11 minute window of the game is crazy intense, due to either cheese or all ins, which some players have down to a T. The Grand Finals were Bo5. MLG is evolving though, continuous rapid improvements.
Dreamhack- Most everyone agrees that Bo5 Semi and Bo7 Finals should be there from a spectator standpoint, but who knows what the organizers or players want.
They play a lot of games in those 3 days for MLG and DH. Bo3x5(or 4 depending on group size) then another Bo3 for every round they advance.
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Bo3 in the final rounds made me laugh. I bet a lot of the results wouldn't have been the same.
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EPT
