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On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote:
But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
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I somewhat agree semi finals could / should be bo5. But not sure if players want more games, Kinda depends on them and the logistics.
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MLG's extended series is one of the best things about the tournament's structure.
The winner between two players is not based on when they meet, but is instead based on who has more wins overall between the two.
Extending it into a Bo5 or greater would make it so that the guy who won previously is almost guaranteed to win.
For example.
Player A lost to Player B during pool play 0-2.
They meet in the finals, it's a best of 5. Player A wins 3-2. This makes their official record 3-4. They do a second Bo5 to ensure the better player wins. Player A wins 3-2. Their official record is now 6-6. You can't have a tie, so they play another Bo5. Player A wins 3-2 putting their official record at 9-8 in Player A's favor. Player A simply needed to win 3 Bo5 games to do it.
See how silly that is?
HOWEVER!
I do agree about single elimination tournaments needing a longer series in the final stages of the game (not the early ones of course, the tournament has to be able to finish on time)
Once you get past 16 players, Bo3 starts to take a really long time to finish...
16 players could do a Bo3 relatively easily over the course of a week or 2-3 FULL days (morning till night)
Think about it this way.
A normal game of SC2 should take about 10-20 minutes. Sometimes less if they cheese, but sometimes more if the map gets split in half. 10-20 is reasonable.
A Bo3 then takes up 20-60 minutes. Which means 16 players takes up 160-480 minutes to play schedule wise. Yes, it could be a bunch of 2-0 games and not take long. But they could all be ridiculous games that take forever--both game possibilities must be accounted for by the tourney venue.
So it's reasonable to only have a Bo3 in a medium sized tournament of 16-32 people.
But when you get to 8 players left, a Bo3 takes up 80-240 minutes. Barely any time at all. Let's imagine a Bo5. 30-100 minutes. Between 8 players that's 120-400 minutes. That's actually really close to how long 16 people doing a Bo3 takes.
16 players doing a Bo3 takes only a bit longer than 8 people doing a Bo5.
4 people doing a Bo9 takes 100-360 minutes. just a little less than 8 people doing a Bo5.
2 people doing a Bo15 takes 80-300 minutes. just a little less than 4 people doing a Bo9.
Now it's clear that it'd be ridiculous to have each round of games take as long to get through as each other because then you'd have a finals where the finalists have to play 15 rounds against each other over a period of several days.
Add to it the cost of a venue, sponsorship funding, the player's time, etc....
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for tournaments like DH and MLG the quality of the games would just decrease if it was bo5/bo7 from say quarter finals, its just too many games for the players. I'd rather have them give all they got left in a bo3/bo5, than some half-arsed performance in a bo7.
Also as djWHEAT says you need to think from a organizer point of view aswell, dreamhack for example run 4-5 tournament finals in one night at the same venue you cant claim that time dosnt matter in cases like that.
only complaint i have is please dont let extended series affect finals at mlg, just have it as an ordinary bo5 or bo7 i guess due to LB disadvantage. There is too much of a chance that that finalists would have met before, due to winner of WB goes to final and loser goes to LB final, and if the WB loser wins that they will meet the guy that they have already met in the WB final, so the risk for extended series final is greater than 50%.
Also take into account that LB disadvantage and it makes it pretty much impossible for the LB guy to take the finals.
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On June 22 2011 00:55 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote:
But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ... This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent). Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic. (*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face.
Extended series unfair? HAH
Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
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My only real problem is with the NASL. The time to money ratio is very odd. It takes 11 weeks to decide if you get 500$ or not for the first 16 players. That is 8k$ of 100k$ prizepool. The rest is distributed over 3 days with a lot of bo3s.
If Nasl insist that it should take only 3 days because it is otherwise too expensive like other live tournaments, there are still many formats which would be better.
For example you could only invite the first 10 players and do a round robin for the first 2 and half days and then do a grand final for two players who came first. That would be more fair for the players and they would get enough time to play. Every place should get a different price like 10th gets 1k$ 9th gets 1,5k$, 8th 2k$ and so on.
The problem is of course that it isn't as exciting as a normal tournament but it would definatly ensure that the two best players are in the grand final.
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In an ideal world all tournaments would follow the same format as the GSL. But as we`ve heard from pretty much every foreigner that is just not feasible and is horrible for commitment/return for the players. This is there jobs. For them a Dreamhack and MLG are ideal. Quick tournament with good return. Why do you think Idra pulled out of GSL and no other good foreigners want to go there to compete? Because they need to make money.
I'd love to see all these tournaments adopt epic formats akin to TSL and GSL, but unfortunately that is just not realistic.
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On June 21 2011 23:15 JinDesu wrote:
I don't think you are completely right here. It may be wrong to say "Damn, I wish this tournament running right now is a Bo5 or whatever". It isn't wrong to ask tournament organizers to put consideration for Bo5+ finals in future tournaments where the logistics haven't been finalized.
Can you please explain "where the logistics haven't been finalized"? Considering that MLG has run in a similar format for 8+ years... I'd say that's pretty damn finalized.
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As spectators people would enjoy a match up that could really go either way and have room for a comeback, with a BO3 you don't really get that feeling as a spectator.
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I agree. It blew my mind how Dreamhack didn't get double elimination when they had random drawings and the strongest competition got put into the bottom 8 of the bracket..
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MLG and Dreamhack are endurance tournaments. The entire tournament happens over the course of a day or a weekend and this is extremely exhausting. To expect players to play long series after having played the entire day is a little overwhelming.
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On June 22 2011 01:15 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 00:55 Rabiator wrote:On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote:
But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ... This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent). Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic. (*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3. Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face. Extended series unfair? HAH Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
It's been said before and I'll say it again. Double Elimination tournaments aren't about players 1v1 records against each other throughout the tournament(go play a showmatch if you want to decide the better player) but about how many series you lost. You lose TWO series that's it you're done. Extended series not only has managed to screw up the Finals of MLG multiple times now by making it a 2-3 game bore fest, it's randomness is something you don't want in tournaments.
I'm sorry Tyler got butthurt that Tasteless took him out with a "worse" record, but you know what prevents that? Winning the elimination series and not crying afterwards that you had a better record because it DOESN'T MATTER when it's about series lost and not about your record against a specific player.
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imo just get rid of double elimination.
i hate the format, it creates so much less hype. i'd be fine with bo3's all the way through till semi/quarter finals where it's bo5 if that's what it takes. problem with double eliminiation is that if you have previous knowledge that one player is at a disadvantage, what's the fun. if he comes back you're happy, but you expect him to lose.
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On June 21 2011 23:04 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote:
I understand that there are a lot of constraints.
But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ?
I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players. Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to. So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals? I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen. It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy. I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
if you too just read that in wheats voice, you are watching too much starcraft!!!
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On June 22 2011 01:57 shawster wrote:
imo just get rid of double elimination.
i hate the format, it creates so much less hype. i'd be fine with bo3's all the way through till semi/quarter finals where it's bo5 if that's what it takes. problem with double eliminiation is that if you have previous knowledge that one player is at a disadvantage, what's the fun. if he comes back you're happy, but you expect him to lose.
Take an example
The top 4 players in a tourney all meet each other in the Ro16
Only 2 get to pass
Two of them get knocked out, and make no money.
How is it fair that the 3rd and 4th best players don't get 3rd and 4th place because of unlucky bracket placement?
Double elimination (barring extended series) helps to fix this problem.
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On June 21 2011 23:04 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote:
I understand that there are a lot of constraints.
But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ?
I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players. Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to. So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals? I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen. It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy. I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
MLG is lucky that they dont have GoOdy.
On the side note. At first i thought the DH Summer had worse scheduling than last DH Winter.
But then i thought more about it. Despite being the so called endurance tournament the players have a bit of time to rest, prepare strategy for next match if they finish it fast.
July had always the most time (EGMachine was killed 0-2 by July in under 10 minutes).
Also the BYOC players had a time to rest a bit. DH admins putt theirs matches later do to the fact that BYOC tournament run late.
Big props to DH for perfectly executed event.
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I completely agree that at least the semifinals+finals in major tournaments such as Dreamhack/MLG should be BO5. Ideally, the Ro8 in Single elimination tournaments (Dreamhack) should be Bo5 as well. For MLG, as it is double elimination, we could be ok with only semis+finals being Bo5.
The best example that can be given here is the GSL's playoffs: Ro16 Bo3, Ro8-Ro4 Bo5, Finals Bo7. This for me is undoubtedly the best system you can have for a single elimination bracket.
I was quite shocked when I found out MC vs Bomber in Ro8 was going to be Bo3. Bo3's are more random, can finish very quickly, and as a whole provide much less entertainment then a Bo5. Ask yourself this question, would have preferred to watch MC vs Bomber (arguably the two best players at dreamhack) play 2 times more games then they did? Hell yeah u would, at least if you are a fan of starcraft!
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@ OP,
If you think you can run a better tournament, why don't you...
I can't even imagine the cost of renting out the convention center in Columbus, Ohio for 3 days. Sure there are sponsors but you have to accomodate players, fans, and sponsors. MLG is already getting smack for how they treated players in the open bracket (Pokebunny and Catz were pissed and ThorZain stated that he might not go to another MLG unless he's seeded).
In addition, TSL3 was an online tournament so logistics weren't as much of a factor, whereas MLG and DH are live, LAN events.
NASL just confuses me so I'll give you that.
Sure satisfy the fans, but the players are probably exhausted by the time they make it that far, not to mention their time is more important than the fans.
Just appreciate the fact that the players gave good games in the tournament.
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On June 22 2011 01:54 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 01:15 zaii wrote:On June 22 2011 00:55 Rabiator wrote:On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote:
But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ... This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent). Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic. (*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3. Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face. Extended series unfair? HAH Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair! It's been said before and I'll say it again. Double Elimination tournaments aren't about players 1v1 records against each other throughout the tournament(go play a showmatch if you want to decide the better player) but about how many series you lost. You lose TWO series that's it you're done. Extended series not only has managed to screw up the Finals of MLG multiple times now by making it a 2-3 game bore fest, it's randomness is something you don't want in tournaments. I'm sorry Tyler got butthurt that Tasteless took him out with a "worse" record, but you know what prevents that? Winning the elimination series and not crying afterwards that you had a better record because it DOESN'T MATTER when it's about series lost and not about your record against a specific player.
Double elimination is about winning series and staying alive long enough to make it to the finals with 2 chances so no flukes occur. Extended series just enforces the format to be fair.
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MLG Open bracket iirc is hell to go through, that could be another area for them to focus on/improve upon...
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EPT
