edit : I guess my title sux, as my point is that bo3s at the very end of the tourneys are not enough, and not that their whole format is not good. edit : I want to clarify that it's not a big deal, those tournaments are awesome already. My goal is not to say those tourneys are bad. Because they are good (more than good). I just want organizers to consider it and see if bo5 for semis and finals could fit in the current schedule.
And I'm not talking about group play, or extended series, but about the final brackets. Let's take a look at NASL, Dreamhack, MLG, and to a lesser degree GSL :
- NASL : North American Star League Season 1/Main Bracket 3 months of group play, then you travel to USA and you can go back home (and home can be 10000km away) with only one best of 3 played.
- MLG : 2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Columbus 2 days of intense group play, and again only best of 3s, grand finals included. The last few MLG finals had a duration of less than 30 minutes.
- Dreamhack : DreamHack Summer 2011 2 days of intense group play, then again single elimination best of 3s. Only the grand final is a best of 5.
The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame (edit : seems it's not true). The bo3 ro16 of the super tournament were already disappointing, the matchups were big and were deserving bo5. Let's look at the TSL : bo3 for ro32, bo5 for ro16-8 then bo7 for ro4 and later. This is what makes a tournament epic.
I can't imagine that this "bo3 everywhere" policy is there for schedule reasons (edit : wrong). Yesterday, the DH could have had bo5 brackets and bo7 finals with the exact same schedule. The MLG has some wait time between games, so I don't think it's a schedule problem. I think the tournament organizers just didn't really think about how best of 3 finals anticlimactic, and even random, are.
My point is, I can't find any practical argument to defend those bo3 policies (I'm sure there are tho, but do they outweight the enormous cons ?), so please, Mr MLG, Mr DH and Mr NASL, give us real tournament formats ! We deserve them, your tournaments deserves them and the players deserves them.
TLDR : no more best of 3s final brackets of major tournaments, please.
GSL is easily the worst in terms of commitment to what you get out of it. If you lose first (assuming you've already got into Code A/S) then you can't play again for a month. And you're in Korea. And you've probably already setup accomodation/whatever for that month. It really limits other tournaments you can compete in.
MLG is not single elimination. Its double. But it is all bo3 throughout, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a change to that for finals, but it would screw up the extended series rule. On top of that, its a tightly run tournament, and has trouble keeping to time anyway.
Also, I think the GSL finals are proof that a bo7 does not = epic games. Some of the best matches in SC2 have been bo3's.
My Counter Arguement But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events also so to add more to that could just be over exhausting and if you don't think so then try playing a mass amount of games over the course of 2 days and then playing even more games back to back. Might actually make you go insane. Bo5 Series are very very exhausting. MVP admitted to losing ot Tester in the GSTL because of how exhausted he was after playing the first 4 games. Now yes Tester did come out fresh but playing that many games back too back after already having 2 longs days of barely eating and sleeping may not give the best tournament results or games. Might see a lot of cheesing.
I, too would love to see more games by these epic players!
Only.... I can imagine that these huge LAN tournaments are a major strain on the players.
At MLG, in particular, if you're rising through the open bracket, only to get seeded into the Loser's Bracket after group play, that's one HELL of a lot of games to play!
3 Days of games is exhausting enough, especially for those players who have jetlag because they flew half-way across the world, with only best of 3's. How much more so would they be if they were faced with playing an additional two games per round?
I can understand GSL upping the ro8 to bo5. I'm down for that, but these live tourneys.... I don't know...It would be more than ok by me, but only if the players overwhelmingly supported it.
totally agree. Really anti-climactic when following MLG/DH specially in the group stages, all the excitment and tension. Seeing the playoff groups, getting my beer and sandwich ready. And then the whole thing is over in 20-30 minutes because of one way or another bo3.
Finals should ALWAYS be bo7. I can accept b05. Bo3 is a joke.
I'm only talking about finals bracket tho. Yesterday, the Dreamhack (which was an awesome event, I'm not trying to say those events sux, I love them) ro16 and onward, which featured super strong players playing for high stakes, was bo3 only, which was super disappointing. How can a semi final be a best of 3 ?
In live events, those brackets are on the final day. In DH case, players have all the time to be in good form.
I agree with you that NASL and MLG formats stink. NASL has way too many games which makes alot of them feel unimportant. MLG is the worst of all by having non seeded players having to play up to 3x as many games as seeded players. It also features the most stupid rule there is in the extended series rule. GSL sucks a little for having bo1 in the pool phase and having a dreadful up/down system, barrier to entry is way too high as players need to go through code A qualifier and code A to get there while even the worst code S players can hang around way too long, for example by both being picked by the code A winner (so one of the crappy players remains).
DH was pretty good though, lots of spare time for the players, almost continuous games and quite a fair system by having good pools and then knockout play without having too many uninteresting matches. Knockout system could use Bo5 from ro8 or ro4 instead of only the finals but it wasn't too bad imo. Casting the games consecutively instead of being on this by the hour schedule would be slightly better imo as it makes it a bit more fun to watch directly but then again this way it was easy to tune in for one specific match if you liked to.
I think when a MLG rep (either Lee or Sundance) talked on SOTG about maps and such, they had a real concern about big maps taking too long. Image, a truly epic game om TDA takes atleast 30 minutes, maybe 45. Add 5-10 minutes between maps for setting up stuff, players getting something to drink etc. Then you need a commercial maybe. That's allmost 1 hour pr. map for a BO3. Okay we allmost never see 30-45 minutes games, but if we get a BO5 or BO7 final, i think it's safe to assume that atleast 2 are gonna be that with the rest averaging 15-20 minutes. That's still allmost 2.5 - 3 hours of a final. If DH had a 3 hour SC2 final, the 2-3 hour CS final that was comming up after it, was going late...
I think it's safe to assume it's all because of scheduling. Is it good? No a BO5 final would atleast be good, but scheduling doesn't allow for it.
i think bo3 is fine until ro4, then for the semi finals and final i'd like to see more than bo3 ! And i also think guys are underestimating the scheduling problem, imagine how a bo5 TvT can screw the schedule if played to early in the tournament :D
BO3s allow for squeezing 4 match-ups for a single broadcast, that's why GSL keeps it for ro16. It's the difference between 4 days of bo16 rather than 8 days. Remember how bad the bo7 semifinals were?
BO3 in NASL octofinals is necessary because the first round need to be squeezed within the first day of the lan. All players deserve a day to prepare for their ro8 matchup and there's no way to extend the venue rental.
MLG final is not a single bo3, it is either a bo7 extended series or two sets of bo3, in case the lower bracket player won the first set. How else would you design a final in a double-elimination bracket?
Taking a minute to think about limitations a admin have to work with, then you'll understand why decisions are made like this.
As a spectator, I disagree. Matches feel drawn out and tedious if nothing exciting happens, and more games played adds to that feeling. Bo3 is enough to actually give some good games, and it will never really feel tedious if one player outclasses the other. Watching a slow 4-0 grand finals in GSL with one player severely outclassing the other is not really fun. I find it more interesting to actually watch more matchups rather than more games in one matchup, i.e. I'd rather watch Player A vs B and C vs D and E vs F in Bo3s than just A vs B and C vs D in Bo5s.
Double Elimination is also quite bad from a spectator perspective. When you get to the finals you either need to have extended series, a 1-0 lead for the person coming from the winner bracket, or a double BoX in the event that the person from the loser bracket wins the first set of matches. It really just provides anticlimax, "Oh wow he won that 3-0! ...... but now he has to win again! >_>"
I prefer the Single Elimination Bo3 all the way until a Bo5 finals. But preferrably group play until the quarters if not even the semis.
Though I can def. understand that players want as many chances as possible to prove themselves and reduce the "randomness" of having a bad draw and meeting a tough opponent early on.
I think Dreamhack should go for BO5's in the Playoffs and have them all on Monday? I did not really "get" the Deal with having the finals on Monday when you still mainly have BO3's. Even with the full RO16 on Monday this could work out timewise?
I like the single elimination format, because it gives each series more weight. do or die! sometimes it can be unlucky, but that`s something everybody has to deal with. The same can happen in tennis, soccer, basketball and so on. I would also go this far and say eSport is in a better position than real sport, because there are more tournaments and if some player gets unlucky in one tournament he can redeem himself (often) within weeks.
On June 21 2011 21:06 Primadog wrote: BO3s allow for squeezing 4 match-ups for a single broadcast, that's why GSL keeps it for ro16. It's the difference between 4 days of bo16 rather than 8 days. Remember how bad the bo7 semifinals were?
BO3 in NASL octofinals is necessary because the first round need to be squeezed within the first day of the lan. All players deserve a day to prepare for their ro8 matchup and there's no way to extend the venue rental.
MLG final is not a single bo3, it is either a bo7 extended series or two sets of bo3, in case the lower bracket player won the first set.
Taking a minute to think about limitations a admin have to work with, then you'll understand why decisions are made like this.
I took that minute, but still don't understand. (I can understand the GSL case, which is a minor concern) What I can't understand is DH semi finals with a 25 minutes duration or MLG finals with a 30 minutes duration. It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore.
In NASL case, your saying that the format of a 100k tournament will place broadcasting constraints over fairness constraints, which I strongly disagree with. The players know their ro8 matchup several weeks in advance.
edit : again, lot of players are missing the point, I'm not against direct elimination, I'm against stupid best of 3s in the LATE phase of tournaments.
On June 21 2011 21:05 windzor wrote: I think when a MLG rep (either Lee or Sundance) talked on SOTG about maps and such, they had a real concern about big maps taking too long. Image, a truly epic game om TDA takes atleast 30 minutes, maybe 45. Add 5-10 minutes between maps for setting up stuff, players getting something to drink etc. Then you need a commercial maybe. That's allmost 1 hour pr. map for a BO3. Okay we allmost never see 30-45 minutes games, but if we get a BO5 or BO7 final, i think it's safe to assume that atleast 2 are gonna be that with the rest averaging 15-20 minutes. That's still allmost 2.5 - 3 hours of a final. If DH had a 3 hour SC2 final, the 2-3 hour CS final that was comming up after it, was going late...
I think it's safe to assume it's all because of scheduling. Is it good? No a BO5 final would atleast be good, but scheduling doesn't allow for it.
Yea but if it was up to sundance sc2 would be played on the xbox and you would play on blackops maps.... MLG is only concerned with big maps taking too long because it means they cant run 15,0000 comercials to grab at some more money.
NASL-- Well keep in mind NASL foots the bill for the final "lan" event so at least the players arent paying their way to lose in a quick best of 3. While I wouldnt mind seeing this switched to double elim, As with the other events, there is a time constraint as with things like MLG you arent going to be streaming every match, but I expect NASL will.
As for MLG, you have 3 days to run through a LOT of matches. And as others said its a double elim tourney, not a single. If you win all your matches in your group (and sometimes lose 1) you are in winners bracket semi. If you lost a match you are likely in the losers bracket...you know, because you lost.
Agreed. Also, please more group play, having groups is always preferable (more precise) to single elimination. Large groups, like in NASL are the best. In short: don't shorten the game format too much, it becomes almost useless.
I think GSL kinda sucks with the lack of loser brackets. You can have a matchup like Bomber vs Nestea in the Ro64 and then have a failure like Nestea vs Inca in the finals since the brackets can be set up in a way where the best of the best are on one side and the worst are on the other.
I think semi and final should be best of 5 or 7. Before that there is not enough time to play the games.
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't MLG have a double elimination?> Or at least if you lose a game you go to losers round ?
Some match-ups are by default short, others are long, TvT can go on for hours imagine playing 7 of them it would be painful in the end. Whereas PvP and ZvZ are often short games.
The Reason TSL could do Best of 5 was that it had time. you would never have been able to fit TSL3 into a 3 day event like DH and MLG.
On June 21 2011 21:17 Pengu wrote: I think semi and final should be best of 5 or 7. Before that there is not enough time to play the games.
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't MLG have a double elimination?> Or at least if you lose a game you go to losers round ?
Some match-ups are by default short, others are long, TvT can go on for hours imagine playing 7 of them it would be painful in the end. Whereas PvP and ZvZ are often short games.
The Reason TSL could do Best of 5 was that it had time. you would never have been able to fit TSL3 into a 3 day event like DH and MLG.
That I can agree. At least the semis and finals of any big tournament should be bo5. In case of DH bo5 ro8 and even ro16 would have been perfect, because all matches were big, involving great players. It's harsh to battle for days only to have your destiny determined by a semi random bo3 imo In case of MLG, finals should be at least bo5 too. Any final that only last 2 games is dull.
On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote: The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame.
Is there a confirmation of this?
I'll be hesitant to believe it if it were from the overlays during the Group Selection broadcast, because they're prone to errors.
On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote: The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame.
Is there a confirmation of this?
I'll be hesitant to believe it if it were from the overlays during the Group Selection broadcast, because they're prone to errors.
On June 21 2011 21:07 Keype wrote: totally aggree, DH seems to be the ones doing the best job with it as a lan.
well, i dont agree in case of DHsummer.
A bo3 in semis is just detremental. I mean, in the worst case you have two 10 minute games, and the thing is over. Yesterday was quite unsatisfying for me i've got to say (not that the result in the end wasnt great), 30 minutes games, 1 hour pause is just not feasible if you want to please a live/stream-audience.
And thats what Quarter to Semi-finals have been yesterday.
Why not just add +2 to each step such that it goes from Bo3 ---> Bo11 ( Finals ) that would be really interesting...with a possible reverse from 0-5 to 6-5...
MLG is double elimination, and always goes over on time, so no change should be made.
GSl, well yes, it should have Bo5 Ro8. That's true.
DH just seems to prefer having Bo5 finals, whether because of time, or just that's the way they prefer it, it never stops the final games being epic.
And NASL is fine, Bo3 Ro16 is good, Bo5 after that, then Bo7 finals (I believe).
So while, yeah there are slight problems, they aren't as major as things like Extended Series, which is a joke of rule. Interesting how different tourney's are run though, isn't it?
actually i dont like this many games. i like the good old broodwar format of bo1 groupplay...that being sad i know it encourages cheese and upsetes and thats the beauty of it. only finals should be bo5 imho
On June 21 2011 21:26 nalgene wrote: Why not just add +2 to each step such that it goes from Bo3 ---> Bo11 ( Finals ) that would be really interesting...with a possible reverse from 0-5 to 6-5...
That would be good but perhaps a little too much :p Really, my biggest concern is MLG finals and semis, DH semis. The problem in NASL is in ro16, so bo3 is ok, it's just having people come from all over the world for playing 2 games seems a little dumb, but I can understand the logic here. For MLG and DH I can't understand at all, I don't see any real argument against.
Well, TSL and GSL happen over long period of time, whereas MLG and DH have to crunch in huge amounts of game in 2-3 days. So naturally, you can't really expect format to be the same. That being said, I do consider NASL to be more of GSL and TSL, so 1 bo3 at round of 16 is kinda lame. I mean, MC or Boxer, along with 7 others, will have to fly to California just to play 1 bo3. That doesn't feel right.
On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote: The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame.
Is there a confirmation of this?
I'll be hesitant to believe it if it were from the overlays during the Group Selection broadcast, because they're prone to errors.
No, that's why I said it seems, I don't know yet.
The schedule seems to allocate two days for the Ro8, which probably implies Bo5. 2 matches per day = 2 Bo5s (usually)
Going back to the topic though. I think that Bo5s in the Quarterfinals should probably be the best for most single elimination brackets. Bo3s in the Ro16 personally is alright. While most games end within 10-20 minutes, some games can go over the 30 minute mark and lead to 2 and half hours worth of games (breaks and stuff included).
It's not very practical in a tournament scheduling setting IMO. This is for all tournaments, including NASL. There are 8 games to play and if you were going to cast them all, it THEORETICALLY could take 2.5*8 = 20 hours to play and cast. Yeah I know the odds that all games go that long is almost 0, but still stretching games out too long is going to be quite draining on players, casters and even audiences.
As for MLG, yeah they definitely need to set their WB semifinals and finals to be a Bo5 or 7. I don't know how to address the extended series rule because I personally thing the previous winner should have a bit of an advantage. But I'm not really to fussed whether or not it's there.
As for the Grand finals, they should definitely make it a Bo7, and perhaps give the WB champion a 1-0 or 2-0 advantage for winning the WB (again, I think that a person who won earlier should be given a bit of an advantage) otherwise there's no point in a double elimination format.
I agree that finals need a Bo7 and that semis need at least a Bo5 - but everything else I think is too exhausting for the players. Even if it can be done schedule-wise (here you have to think about stuff like Goody's TvT...even spectating nerds need sleep at some point), with the very tight playdays of MLG and DH I'm afraid that players might be too worn out from earlier rounds when it comes to the finals. And this, I'm sure, nobody wants.
Honestly I dont think you'd be getting all angsty about this if the semi final games in dreamhack had been as exciting as you want. Changing it to a BO5 isnt the solution to this, being fortunate is the solution.
With events like DH particularly you also have no reason to be complaining about "downtime" between games because they were over so fast. They had SO MANY different events going on to watch. If you would just open your eyes you might find something new you like. Its actually amazing that DH managed to run on schedule and even have some time for the players in between games. The amount of LANs that are forced to run till God knows what unholy hour because they tried to cram too much into short a time is huge, and that is bad for the players and directly impacts on the quality of the games.
Sticking to a manageable format is by far the best way to go. BO5 COULD be manageable, but then if you get another set of longer games it could also NOT be.
pdd and sleepingdog, I agree fully, you said what I wanted to say better than how I said it ^^ I'm not asking to change every bo3 in bo9, just the last matches (finals, semis, and quarter if possible). I would like to hear some players about this, and obviously tourney organizers.
Not to mention, we see the players like what? 2 seconds each day? whats the point of them being there when they don't get shown to the public in most cases? (I know I'm exaggerating)
I totally agree. There should be more bo5s or bo7s in the final stages of MLG/DH etc.
It is sad, but a huge part of games in sc2 are decided by random chance and i am afraid it will get worse with blizzards focus (atleast from my perspective) on just overall 50% winrates and not on how they are achieved in detail.
It is not as worse in tournaments as in ladder, since you can prepare for your opponent - but still .. + Show Spoiler +
what would have happened if for example HuK scouted in the opposite direction in the last game on DH yesterday? What would have happened if he saw the hatch in the game before? What would have happened if he wasn't caught out of position the two games before, because he had to take the risk to pressure the zerg? What would have happened if Moon was able to scout the 4gate in the first game?
Seeing this randomness appear really makes me hate this game and reducing the format to a lot of bo3's makes it even worse :/
I'd really like to see players who repeatedly have the chance to defend their 1st place in tournaments, so everyone can see that there are persistent skill differences even on the highest level, but sadly this rarely or never happens.
Bo7 really cuts on the excitement because there are so many games to play.
Ideally we would have Bo5 when possible and Bo3 as a compromise for time. But many event organizers have trouble understanding why would you need more than one game to determine a winner.
DH has pretty tight schedule afaik, and the same arena is used for other stuff both before and after finals. They probably could fit in Bo5s most of the time, but to take into account two defensive players (typically terrans) making it into semis/finals, I doubt they can take that risk. I guess you could argue they should be more flexible, but you're still fucking up things for other people supposed to do other stuff in the arena. Another option would be to not play in the arena, but then you'd lose the epicness of huge crowd and cheering.
MLG might not have the same scheduling problem and afaik they have the same scene available for SC2 all the time, but they seem to have so many more games going on. And the extended series rule (please remove it asap imo) would make Bo5s or even Bo7s rather strange.
Overall I really think you should investigate all the possible scheduling issues of the tournaments beyond "look there was 30min unfilled time here, there could have been more games fit in!!!". Maybe there are more possibilities, but i doubt it.
Edit: And from what I've heard, players themselve sreally appreciate set schedules where they always know who will play who when. As a viewer it might be more enjoyable to just keep the games coming and let it take the time it takes, start next game when previous finishes. But I imagine as an organizer and player its the opposite.
On June 21 2011 21:37 Thretau wrote: I think OSL/MSL has the best format. I have been pretty disappointed that both MLG and Dreamhack doesn't have Bo5 in Ro4.
Semifinals and Finals: Bo5
Bo7 is unnecessary for Finals in my opinion.
Thing is SC1 and SC2 are different games. SC2 game times are on average shorter than SC1 games and at the present moment is more volatile (although a lot less).
Also, SC2 has somewhat developed its own tournament culture and it's more "standard" for a final to be Bo7. As SC2 gets less volatile and longer, it could be possible to reduce the Bo7 to a Bo5, but personally I still prefer the Bo7 finals to Bo5s. Makes for more entertaining series and a better comeback potential (Thorzain's comeback victory over Naniwa + Nestea MKP Game 7 was more thrilling than MKP Nestea Game 5).
Remember that LANs like Dreamhack may run tournaments for dozens of other games besides SC2. There probably just isn't time during one weekend for more bo5/bo7 games when the tournament PCs, stage and so on are needed for other games as well.
I want to see DH have BO5 in semis, BO7 in finals and hopefully not on Monday.
They also need to the make the streaming schedule more clear, had to switch between streams way too much just to find the player I wanted to spec without having a clear idea where to find it.
Would be too many games for a 3 day event I think. MLG is already pretty demanding even if you are in pool play, not to mention the open bracket. Same goes for Dreamhack or similar events. GSL is different because it's much longer.
For MLG I feel only the final needs to be BO5 due to the double elimination format. It should also be no problem for the extended series, as you just extend the old BO3 to a BO9 instead of a BO7.
And while we are on the subject: We are on a MLG grand final. Winner and loser have already met, so we are in a extended series BO7 with the winner bracket player starting out with 2-1. Now the loser bracket played manages to bring the score to 2-4. Will the series be extended now once again to a BO11?
That would mean that if the MLG finals are BO5, they could be extended to BO15! Epic stuff.
Personally I think it's fine. Long matches can get drawn out/boring after awhile. Yes I would've loved to see 5 games of Bomber/Moon or 7 games of HuK/Moon, but I don't want to see 5 or 7 games of Goody playing.
OP: You don't have to lie to make your point. For instance, MLG is not single elimination, finals are not bo3. Also, what's the problem with single elimination after group play in DH? Do you not want players eliminated ever? Get real.
On June 21 2011 21:37 Thretau wrote: I think OSL/MSL has the best format. I have been pretty disappointed that both MLG and Dreamhack doesn't have Bo5 in Ro4.
Semifinals and Finals: Bo5
Bo7 is unnecessary for Finals in my opinion.
Thing is SC1 and SC2 are different games. SC2 game times are on average shorter than SC1 games and at the present moment is more volatile (although a lot less).
Also, SC2 has somewhat developed its own tournament culture and it's more "standard" for a final to be Bo7. As SC2 gets less volatile and longer, it could be possible to reduce the Bo7 to a Bo5, but personally I still prefer the Bo7 finals to Bo5s. Makes for more entertaining series and a better comeback potential (Thorzain's comeback victory over Naniwa + Nestea MKP Game 7 was more thrilling than MKP Nestea Game 5).
What the hell? Because MKP vs Nestea game 7 was better than MKP vs Nestea game 5 you think Bo7's are better?
That's true, I removed single elim from MLG in OP. But that's not the point at all anyway. And there's no problem about DH single elimination, again you missed the point completely.
As an event organiser, you should cater first to the players, then to the organisation of the tournament AND then you can start thinking about what the spectators want. In the case of MLG and DH, players need to be on the venue for 3 long days and you'll only wear them out even more if you're gonna force them to play bo5/bo7 series, which CAN lead to quality loss in the games. Longer series means also a tighter schedule with no room for error and in some cases more investment in material, as an event like DH organises multiple competitions which are to be played on the tournament computers. The spectators want to see as much high-quality games as possible, with little to no delay, which is the case imo.
Some of you are saying they can learn from MSL/OSL and TSL, when those are completely different tournaments which are spread out over several weeks, one being completely online and being cast from replays.
If anything, the bo3 gives less room for error, which makes it more exciting to me. Sure a comeback in a bo7 is nice to watch, but when you've been playing all weekend long, with little to no breaks, lack of sleep/food, and you're 3-0 behind, how big is the chance you'll make a comeback à la a rested and "relaxed" Thorzain in TSL finals.
It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days.
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there.
It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on.
And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are.
TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
I like NASL, format could be improved by adding games to allow for cross bracket play. But I want more of a pro-sports season out of that format. I don't care if it takes 3 months, or 6 months, it is not just a single weekend tournament. But I like the just turn it on in the background and have it as noise and pay attention when a match happens I care about.
I think scheduling also plays a large influence in it. BO3, generally fall within X minutes whether it is 2 rushes or 3 macro games. BO5 on the other hand can be over nearly as quick as a BO3 but go much much longer if each match is protracted. Bigger the variable, harder to schedule around. They also take longer to get to that match point stage. BO3, after one game you are there and it's now do or die providing that viewership thrill. BO5, that first game while important doesn't have the same feel of until games 2 or 3 when someone is on the verge of winning/losing.
On June 21 2011 22:27 djWHEAT wrote: It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days.
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there.
It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on.
And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are.
TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players.
People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
The truth straight from Dr. Wheat himself.
The point of these events is to entertain a majority of the target audience, and that's exactly what MLG and DH have managed to do. There's no such thing as a perfect format, but these formats accomplished their goals. Can't speak the same for NASL, as I do believe their format needs some changes since it's hard to follow and didn't produce any exciting tournament scenarios until the end of the season.
Your argument about a short finals also falls flat because game length is not proportional to entertainment. Most of the GSL finals have been terrible, and they were longer than the DH final, which was very enjoyable.
On June 21 2011 22:27 djWHEAT wrote: It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days.
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there.
It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on.
And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are.
TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
but there aren't any bo3 finals .... DH had bo5 finals and MLG has double elim = extended series or double bo3, of which the WB winner only has to win 1
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously.
DH, GSL and NASL all have at least a bo5 series in the final.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously.
it depends the guy coming from Losers bracket has to win 2 bo3 while the guy in the upper bracket has to win 1 bo3.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously.
it depends the guy coming from Losers bracket has to win 2 bo3 while the guy in the upper bracket has to win 1 bo3.
I don't think so--are you referring to the match that decides which loser's bracket competitor moves up to the real finals?
b/c it is possible for a loser's bracket competitor to play only a bo3 in the finals.
I have to say once more that I love MGL, DH and GSL, I watch them religiously. But I think this point could be improved. This would be better for players, spectators, and for the legitimacy of the tournament.
I agree about MLG but I'm not sure how to make a better format for a large live event. I went 0-2, not 0-2 overall, I mean 0-2 overall maps. I played a FXO member first round who was just straight up a better overall player then me. Then I missed my match early next morning. 70 bucks for 2 games. 'Pretty Disappoint' I'm happy I can say I played in a MLG, however I just wish you got more for your 70$ if you're a player that honestly has no chance to really go far. It was fun standing around and watching the main games on stage but after 2 long/full days of it I had enough.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously.
it depends the guy coming from Losers bracket has to win 2 bo3 while the guy in the upper bracket has to win 1 bo3.
I don't think so--are you referring to the match that decides which loser's bracket competitor moves up to the real finals?
b/c it is possible for a loser's bracket competitor to play only a bo3 in the finals.
it's not. if MC would've won vs Losira he would've needed to win 2 bo3's vs MMA to take the tournament
i wonder what would have happened to the players in the dreamhack if they used a bo7 system all the way + losers bracket. They would look like zombies after a few rounds . Bo3 has been taken over from bw and as the game time etc is pretty similar the only reason to change this is that some viewers are greedy and want some matches to never end.
As for a bo3 its used because a player won't play every map just at the start and would have to show of all his strats within facing 3 opponents. If they used up all their tricks within the first 2 opponents you would get bored (+ at weekend tournaments like dreamhack, people would be soo exhausted that the finals would be a click vs a click cheese, even with energy drinks !)
Also a bo7 needs alot of preparation, to play it to the fullest. So having bo3 with loser bracket or bo5 at something like mlg or dreamhack is totally fine.
Tons of reasons to do it like it is done. Probaly the biggest reason is it won't be more awesome to have people play more games.
1) The extended series rule - most people don't like it
2) the final should be a Bo5
3) seeded players with too much of an advantage in terms of games to play compared to open players, its quite ridiculous you can have the superior players losing due to stamina issues. I think the way the pool play and open bracket are merged needs to be seriously looked at.
Dreamhack was fine in my opinion.
The main GSL tournament is good too. My only complaint would be with the code B, I think they need a losers bracket system in that because currently it seems like the luck of seeding has a huge amount to do with whether you qualify or not.
I'm okay with NASL too, and MrCon your criticism makes no sense. They get 500 dollars even if they lose in the first round which is better than all the other tournaments, and its possible to out in the first round for all the other tournaments (open bracket for DH and MLG) anyway. I don't see your point.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players.
Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to.
So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals?
I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen.
It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players.
Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to.
So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals?
I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen.
It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
About the MLG, I for sure prefer what happened (show all games) instead of not showing them but having a bo5 And yeah, the "I'm sure it would fit the schedule" was a bit bold.
I like your post a lot tho, if the MLG staff are aware of it and try to consider it (if logistically possible) it's just what I ask I'm really not asking to throw more money at it, if it cost money then I consider my idea is bad. I already fear that all the awesome stuff MLG has done in Colombus is costing them a lot of money (just my sentiment, I have no numbers).
On June 21 2011 22:27 djWHEAT wrote: It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days.
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there.
It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on.
And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are.
TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible.
I don't think you are completely right here. It may be wrong to say "Damn, I wish this tournament running right now is a Bo5 or whatever". It isn't wrong to ask tournament organizers to put consideration for Bo5+ finals in future tournaments where the logistics haven't been finalized.
i think best of 3 is more than enough and bo7 finals are too much in my opinion. it's tiring for the players and for the viewers. and if a caster wants to cast a whole match you get so see much less different players over the course of a day. if the matches are not 30-60min but 60-90min each it's more pleasant for everyone. finals bo5 is okay though.
It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
It seems to me that fans want to see more games from the top players and right now MLG invests a massive amount of energy running the open bracket because of the huge amount of players in it and the fact that it is double elim.
If MLG got rid of double elimination in the open bracket (nobody has come out of the losers bracket from the open and even been close to competing for top 3 to my recollection, and with korean invites now the chances are basically nonexistant, anyone who stood a chance would get into pool play from the open winners bracket) it would free up a lot of time and effort and give the fans more of what they want, games from the top pros, not the mediocre or semi-pro ones struggling their way through the open tournament losers bracket so they can quickly be eliminated afterwards.
That or cut the amount of total entries in the open, there is no point in sacrificing your high quality games for ones that few people want to see.
I don't know... I think MLG and NASL are the only ones who need to change their format. Remember it's not just time consuming for the gamers, but the people who run in the background too. I'm pretty sure most of those events also have a certain time that they're supposed to be there.
Ex: MLG is at its venue for the majority of the weekend. I imagine that they would have to have more days as there are more games. MLG had over 200 players for SC2 in the bottom.
NASL just has a weird format and provides a lot of games over the week, as it isn't confined into being over a bunched up days. They mostly rely on the streams it seems.
Dreamhack is probably around in the same position as MLG.
Personally I'd love to see a Bo7 once, but I can understand why most tournaments don't. There are enough tournaments around for everyone to experience anyway to see how certain players perform or not, as I think the longer series of games will only fatigue everyone all round. Bo3's and Bo5's seem fine to me.
When you bring in the extended series rule that messes everything up. The finals already are a "bo7" some of the time if the people have already played, so what happened then?
In this case, i agree that DH semi-finals should be Bo5 and finals, Bo7. NASL i have no comments cause i dislike it. While MLG is fine with Bo3 since its double elim.
The problem that could arise comes from matches that takes forever to finish, specifically TvT, for instance Kas vs Naama at the recent DHS. Players are very likely to run out of steam by the time they get to the finals, but having said that, I agree that the pros outweighs the cons.
9 weeks, 9 important games (18-27 maps) to prepare, to fight and to win. Just to see who are the 8 players to flight around the world to play 1 game (2-3 maps), maybe over in less than half an hour, and be out of tournament.
I think Nasl definitely should have at least bo5 ro16. Hopefully i got my facts straight.
The OSL only becomes a Bo5 in the Ro4. The MSL only becomes a Bo5 in the Ro8. Having too many games makes them all just blend in. It results in too many games looking the same and feeling the same.
Tournaments like DH and MLG already feel ladderish because the best players inevitably are the ones with the safest builds that work in just about every map. There's a huge difference in the quality of games between them and the GSL, especially as the game becomes less volatile.
And even the GSL suffers from too many games with too little time in between. In the OSL and MSL, players have plenty of time to research their opponent's tendencies, opponent's builds, the maps, the match-up and tailor their builds specifically to their opponent. The result is that even 3-0 beat downs are pretty fun to watch as there is some sort of chess game between their builds.
On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote: Let's take a look at NASL, Dreamhack, MLG, and to a lesser degree GSL :
- NASL : North American Star League Season 1/Main Bracket 3 months of group play, then you travel to USA and you can go back home (and home can be 10000km away) with only one best of 3 played.
- MLG : 2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Columbus 2 days of intense group play, and again only best of 3s, grand finals included. The last few MLG finals had a duration of less than 30 minutes.
- Dreamhack : DreamHack Summer 2011 2 days of intense group play, then again single elimination best of 3s. Only the grand final is a best of 5.
The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame (edit : seems it's not true). The bo3 ro16 of the super tournament were already disappointing, the matchups were big and were deserving bo5.
NASL- Why should this be any different? Don't travel if you're afraid to lose? What about the people who fly to Hawaii to play football? Don't travel because one of the teams is going to lose in a single game? College World Series baseball? My team went through a crazy tournament eventually winning and making it to the world series... and then they lost their first Bo3. This is NASLs first season and they've made tons of changes so far, no doubt more to come.
MLG. You can't blame MLG for the duration of the games. GSL has short games. The 6-11 minute window of the game is crazy intense, due to either cheese or all ins, which some players have down to a T. The Grand Finals were Bo5. MLG is evolving though, continuous rapid improvements.
Dreamhack- Most everyone agrees that Bo5 Semi and Bo7 Finals should be there from a spectator standpoint, but who knows what the organizers or players want.
They play a lot of games in those 3 days for MLG and DH. Bo3x5(or 4 depending on group size) then another Bo3 for every round they advance.
On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote: But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
MLG's extended series is one of the best things about the tournament's structure.
The winner between two players is not based on when they meet, but is instead based on who has more wins overall between the two.
Extending it into a Bo5 or greater would make it so that the guy who won previously is almost guaranteed to win.
For example.
Player A lost to Player B during pool play 0-2.
They meet in the finals, it's a best of 5. Player A wins 3-2. This makes their official record 3-4. They do a second Bo5 to ensure the better player wins. Player A wins 3-2. Their official record is now 6-6. You can't have a tie, so they play another Bo5. Player A wins 3-2 putting their official record at 9-8 in Player A's favor. Player A simply needed to win 3 Bo5 games to do it.
See how silly that is?
HOWEVER!
I do agree about single elimination tournaments needing a longer series in the final stages of the game (not the early ones of course, the tournament has to be able to finish on time)
Once you get past 16 players, Bo3 starts to take a really long time to finish...
16 players could do a Bo3 relatively easily over the course of a week or 2-3 FULL days (morning till night)
Think about it this way.
A normal game of SC2 should take about 10-20 minutes. Sometimes less if they cheese, but sometimes more if the map gets split in half. 10-20 is reasonable.
A Bo3 then takes up 20-60 minutes. Which means 16 players takes up 160-480 minutes to play schedule wise. Yes, it could be a bunch of 2-0 games and not take long. But they could all be ridiculous games that take forever--both game possibilities must be accounted for by the tourney venue.
So it's reasonable to only have a Bo3 in a medium sized tournament of 16-32 people.
But when you get to 8 players left, a Bo3 takes up 80-240 minutes. Barely any time at all. Let's imagine a Bo5. 30-100 minutes. Between 8 players that's 120-400 minutes. That's actually really close to how long 16 people doing a Bo3 takes.
16 players doing a Bo3 takes only a bit longer than 8 people doing a Bo5.
4 people doing a Bo9 takes 100-360 minutes. just a little less than 8 people doing a Bo5.
2 people doing a Bo15 takes 80-300 minutes. just a little less than 4 people doing a Bo9.
Now it's clear that it'd be ridiculous to have each round of games take as long to get through as each other because then you'd have a finals where the finalists have to play 15 rounds against each other over a period of several days.
Add to it the cost of a venue, sponsorship funding, the player's time, etc....
for tournaments like DH and MLG the quality of the games would just decrease if it was bo5/bo7 from say quarter finals, its just too many games for the players. I'd rather have them give all they got left in a bo3/bo5, than some half-arsed performance in a bo7. Also as djWHEAT says you need to think from a organizer point of view aswell, dreamhack for example run 4-5 tournament finals in one night at the same venue you cant claim that time dosnt matter in cases like that.
only complaint i have is please dont let extended series affect finals at mlg, just have it as an ordinary bo5 or bo7 i guess due to LB disadvantage. There is too much of a chance that that finalists would have met before, due to winner of WB goes to final and loser goes to LB final, and if the WB loser wins that they will meet the guy that they have already met in the WB final, so the risk for extended series final is greater than 50%. Also take into account that LB disadvantage and it makes it pretty much impossible for the LB guy to take the finals.
On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote: But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face.
Extended series unfair? HAH
Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
My only real problem is with the NASL. The time to money ratio is very odd. It takes 11 weeks to decide if you get 500$ or not for the first 16 players. That is 8k$ of 100k$ prizepool. The rest is distributed over 3 days with a lot of bo3s. If Nasl insist that it should take only 3 days because it is otherwise too expensive like other live tournaments, there are still many formats which would be better. For example you could only invite the first 10 players and do a round robin for the first 2 and half days and then do a grand final for two players who came first. That would be more fair for the players and they would get enough time to play. Every place should get a different price like 10th gets 1k$ 9th gets 1,5k$, 8th 2k$ and so on. The problem is of course that it isn't as exciting as a normal tournament but it would definatly ensure that the two best players are in the grand final.
In an ideal world all tournaments would follow the same format as the GSL. But as we`ve heard from pretty much every foreigner that is just not feasible and is horrible for commitment/return for the players. This is there jobs. For them a Dreamhack and MLG are ideal. Quick tournament with good return. Why do you think Idra pulled out of GSL and no other good foreigners want to go there to compete? Because they need to make money.
I'd love to see all these tournaments adopt epic formats akin to TSL and GSL, but unfortunately that is just not realistic.
On June 21 2011 23:15 JinDesu wrote: I don't think you are completely right here. It may be wrong to say "Damn, I wish this tournament running right now is a Bo5 or whatever". It isn't wrong to ask tournament organizers to put consideration for Bo5+ finals in future tournaments where the logistics haven't been finalized.
Can you please explain "where the logistics haven't been finalized"? Considering that MLG has run in a similar format for 8+ years... I'd say that's pretty damn finalized.
As spectators people would enjoy a match up that could really go either way and have room for a comeback, with a BO3 you don't really get that feeling as a spectator.
I agree. It blew my mind how Dreamhack didn't get double elimination when they had random drawings and the strongest competition got put into the bottom 8 of the bracket..
MLG and Dreamhack are endurance tournaments. The entire tournament happens over the course of a day or a weekend and this is extremely exhausting. To expect players to play long series after having played the entire day is a little overwhelming.
On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote: But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face.
Extended series unfair? HAH
Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
It's been said before and I'll say it again. Double Elimination tournaments aren't about players 1v1 records against each other throughout the tournament(go play a showmatch if you want to decide the better player) but about how many series you lost. You lose TWO series that's it you're done. Extended series not only has managed to screw up the Finals of MLG multiple times now by making it a 2-3 game bore fest, it's randomness is something you don't want in tournaments.
I'm sorry Tyler got butthurt that Tasteless took him out with a "worse" record, but you know what prevents that? Winning the elimination series and not crying afterwards that you had a better record because it DOESN'T MATTER when it's about series lost and not about your record against a specific player.
i hate the format, it creates so much less hype. i'd be fine with bo3's all the way through till semi/quarter finals where it's bo5 if that's what it takes. problem with double eliminiation is that if you have previous knowledge that one player is at a disadvantage, what's the fun. if he comes back you're happy, but you expect him to lose.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players.
Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to.
So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals?
I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen.
It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
if you too just read that in wheats voice, you are watching too much starcraft!!!
On June 22 2011 01:57 shawster wrote: imo just get rid of double elimination.
i hate the format, it creates so much less hype. i'd be fine with bo3's all the way through till semi/quarter finals where it's bo5 if that's what it takes. problem with double eliminiation is that if you have previous knowledge that one player is at a disadvantage, what's the fun. if he comes back you're happy, but you expect him to lose.
Take an example
The top 4 players in a tourney all meet each other in the Ro16
Only 2 get to pass
Two of them get knocked out, and make no money.
How is it fair that the 3rd and 4th best players don't get 3rd and 4th place because of unlucky bracket placement?
Double elimination (barring extended series) helps to fix this problem.
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ?
I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution.
And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players.
Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to.
So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals?
I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen.
It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy.
I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at.
MLG is lucky that they dont have GoOdy.
On the side note. At first i thought the DH Summer had worse scheduling than last DH Winter. But then i thought more about it. Despite being the so called endurance tournament the players have a bit of time to rest, prepare strategy for next match if they finish it fast. July had always the most time (EGMachine was killed 0-2 by July in under 10 minutes). Also the BYOC players had a time to rest a bit. DH admins putt theirs matches later do to the fact that BYOC tournament run late.
I completely agree that at least the semifinals+finals in major tournaments such as Dreamhack/MLG should be BO5. Ideally, the Ro8 in Single elimination tournaments (Dreamhack) should be Bo5 as well. For MLG, as it is double elimination, we could be ok with only semis+finals being Bo5.
The best example that can be given here is the GSL's playoffs: Ro16 Bo3, Ro8-Ro4 Bo5, Finals Bo7. This for me is undoubtedly the best system you can have for a single elimination bracket.
I was quite shocked when I found out MC vs Bomber in Ro8 was going to be Bo3. Bo3's are more random, can finish very quickly, and as a whole provide much less entertainment then a Bo5. Ask yourself this question, would have preferred to watch MC vs Bomber (arguably the two best players at dreamhack) play 2 times more games then they did? Hell yeah u would, at least if you are a fan of starcraft!
If you think you can run a better tournament, why don't you... I can't even imagine the cost of renting out the convention center in Columbus, Ohio for 3 days. Sure there are sponsors but you have to accomodate players, fans, and sponsors. MLG is already getting smack for how they treated players in the open bracket (Pokebunny and Catz were pissed and ThorZain stated that he might not go to another MLG unless he's seeded). In addition, TSL3 was an online tournament so logistics weren't as much of a factor, whereas MLG and DH are live, LAN events. NASL just confuses me so I'll give you that. Sure satisfy the fans, but the players are probably exhausted by the time they make it that far, not to mention their time is more important than the fans. Just appreciate the fact that the players gave good games in the tournament.
On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote: But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face.
Extended series unfair? HAH
Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
It's been said before and I'll say it again. Double Elimination tournaments aren't about players 1v1 records against each other throughout the tournament(go play a showmatch if you want to decide the better player) but about how many series you lost. You lose TWO series that's it you're done. Extended series not only has managed to screw up the Finals of MLG multiple times now by making it a 2-3 game bore fest, it's randomness is something you don't want in tournaments.
I'm sorry Tyler got butthurt that Tasteless took him out with a "worse" record, but you know what prevents that? Winning the elimination series and not crying afterwards that you had a better record because it DOESN'T MATTER when it's about series lost and not about your record against a specific player.
Double elimination is about winning series and staying alive long enough to make it to the finals with 2 chances so no flukes occur. Extended series just enforces the format to be fair.
I prefer 3 day tournaments. Have a life to get on with and 1 month or worse 3 month tournaments does nothing for me. Same reason I don't watch NFL/NBA etc. Only way to do 3 day tournaments is BO3s. You have an argument for NASL tho. I hear that thing is like 12 weeks.
I also agree with the OP. After the group stages (which are absolutely beautiful), I think they need to start BO5 and 7's (not extended series), at the ro8, or at LEAST ro4.
On June 21 2011 20:58 Savern101 wrote: GSL is easily the worst in terms of commitment to what you get out of it. If you lose first (assuming you've already got into Code A/S) then you can't play again for a month. And you're in Korea. And you've probably already setup accomodation/whatever for that month. It really limits other tournaments you can compete in.
MLG is not single elimination. Its double. But it is all bo3 throughout, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a change to that for finals, but it would screw up the extended series rule. On top of that, its a tightly run tournament, and has trouble keeping to time anyway.
Also, I think the GSL finals are proof that a bo7 does not = epic games. Some of the best matches in SC2 have been bo3's.
If you're talking in pure monetary value, you're better off getting a job as a maid or whatever anyway.
Most people don't go to Korea and expect to win code S, they go because they want to excel, and think that they can do so quicker in Korea, plus it's one hell of a starcraft experience. Winning code A isn't that big of a deal anyway.. You win like what? 1500 dollars? I doubt that even covers the plane tickets lmao.
Both DH and MLG are 2-3 day LANs, with already horrible schedules for players. I recall Thorzain saying in his fanclub that he's not going to another MLG as he couldn't even go eat because he had to stick around as at any given time he might have to play. Bo5 finals should be a must though, I'll give you that, but then again I guess there are no bo5s in Halo so I doubt we'll see that out of MLG.
i pretty much agree with most of comments here. i really wish they were more relevant with the round robin games less relevant. however, the time constraints...well....make it less practical tod o it the way op suggests.
At MLG players coming from the open bracket already have to have played tons of games then changing groups to bo5 would be brutal for open bracket players at that tourney.
With this said i believe that bo5 final for dreamhack was a little disappointing for me but that sorta happened with the last MLG where the extended series was used for MMA
On June 21 2011 21:00 GoKu` wrote: But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events ...
This argument doesnt count in the case of MLG since they still have their stupid extended series in place, which would - in the unluckiest circumstance - add two more games than a regular Bo3 they could have had played instead. (*1) This is unequal treatment of their players to begin with and should be changed in any case. Just imagine those two extra games being 30+ minute games and you have a delayed schedule of 1 hour (since one other player has to wait - speak: gets an extra break - for his opponent).
Any semifinal should at least be a Bo5 and a final either a Bo7 (single elimination) or a Bo5 (double elimination). Extended series is crap and not justified by any logic.
(*1) One player starts out at 2-0 and the "series" ends at 3-4, that means they played FIVE games instead of a potential THREE for a Bo3.
Extended series prevents players that have a bad overall record against a player they met earlier from advancing/winning. Like what happened to Tyler. He have had a better record against Tasteless overall, but he got knocked out of the tournament, Now that's truly unfair. Extended series gives the player a chance to redeem himself and prove his the better player or he either falls flat on his face.
Extended series unfair? HAH
Being kicked out of a tournament when you have a better or tie record against that certain player... NOW that's unfair!
The player who lost earlier already got "punished" by being in the losers round earlier and having to play more games. Adding another punishment on top of that is fair? Not in my books and it is seriously stupid for any streaming schedule.
One Bo3 doesnt really determine who is a better player from two competitors. Any good player can lose to any other good player depending on the daily form, so all these "better player arguments" are just stupid.
Another argument against extended series is that you arent guaranteed one of those in the finals, but since that is scheduled as Bo3 you might have a totally short and severely disappointing match. So it is a stupid rule because of at least three reasons.
EPT
North American Star League Season 1/Main Bracket
. Bo3 has been taken over from bw and as the game time etc is pretty similar the only reason to change this is that some viewers are greedy and want some matches to never end.
