EPTBut that's not the point at all anyway.
And there's no problem about DH single elimination, again you missed the point completely.
MLG, DH, NASL, fix your formats ! - Page 4
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
But that's not the point at all anyway. And there's no problem about DH single elimination, again you missed the point completely. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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butch
Belgium684 Posts
In the case of MLG and DH, players need to be on the venue for 3 long days and you'll only wear them out even more if you're gonna force them to play bo5/bo7 series, which CAN lead to quality loss in the games. Longer series means also a tighter schedule with no room for error and in some cases more investment in material, as an event like DH organises multiple competitions which are to be played on the tournament computers. The spectators want to see as much high-quality games as possible, with little to no delay, which is the case imo. Some of you are saying they can learn from MSL/OSL and TSL, when those are completely different tournaments which are spread out over several weeks, one being completely online and being cast from replays. If anything, the bo3 gives less room for error, which makes it more exciting to me. Sure a comeback in a bo7 is nice to watch, but when you've been playing all weekend long, with little to no breaks, lack of sleep/food, and you're 3-0 behind, how big is the chance you'll make a comeback à la a rested and "relaxed" Thorzain in TSL finals. | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there. It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on. And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are. TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
I think scheduling also plays a large influence in it. BO3, generally fall within X minutes whether it is 2 rushes or 3 macro games. BO5 on the other hand can be over nearly as quick as a BO3 but go much much longer if each match is protracted. Bigger the variable, harder to schedule around. They also take longer to get to that match point stage. BO3, after one game you are there and it's now do or die providing that viewership thrill. BO5, that first game while important doesn't have the same feel of until games 2 or 3 when someone is on the verge of winning/losing. | ||
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Johnnybb
Denmark486 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:27 djWHEAT wrote: It's hard to take a post like this seriously, without any sort of salute or acknowledgement to what it takes to logistically run an entire tournament over several days. You can't (and when I say YOU I mean many people in this thread) say things like, "It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore". WRONG. There are still a shitload of schedule constraints. The event can't begin tearing down until the finals is over and every single spectator, player, etc is out of the hall. If they can't tear down, they might not stay on schedule there, and might have to pay EXTRA to the convention hall just to get all their stuff out of there. It's really easy to just say, "God as a spectator this is what I want". But for once I wish people would go beyond just being a spectator and realize what it is exactly that you're asking for. Tournament and event logistics are a fucking nightmare, and many people take for granted just how much of a time crunch these types of events are on. And it's not that I don't agree with you... fuck, I would love BO9's for the MLG finals. Unfortunately, I'm very much in tune with what is happening behind the curtain and I think others should also consider this when commenting on things like this. Otherwise these threads are going to do nothing but become a cesspool for why event A is bad... when in reality, there are so many determining factors that play into why formats are they way they are. TL;DR - People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible. I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ? I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution. And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players. | ||
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StarCraft64
United States354 Posts
People should be more aware of the event logistics that make some of these "fan requests" impossible. The truth straight from Dr. Wheat himself. The point of these events is to entertain a majority of the target audience, and that's exactly what MLG and DH have managed to do. There's no such thing as a perfect format, but these formats accomplished their goals. Can't speak the same for NASL, as I do believe their format needs some changes since it's hard to follow and didn't produce any exciting tournament scenarios until the end of the season. Your argument about a short finals also falls flat because game length is not proportional to entertainment. Most of the GSL finals have been terrible, and they were longer than the DH final, which was very enjoyable. | ||
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butch
Belgium684 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ? but there aren't any bo3 finals .... DH had bo5 finals and MLG has double elim = extended series or double bo3, of which the WB winner only has to win 1 | ||
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FunnelC4kes
Ireland462 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis an finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ? Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously. DH, GSL and NASL all have at least a bo5 series in the final. | ||
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zaii
Guam2611 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:43 FunnelC4kes wrote: Well, MLG is the only tournament that has a bo3 finals, in the case that the two in the finals have not squared off against each other previously. it depends the guy coming from Losers bracket has to win 2 bo3 while the guy in the upper bracket has to win 1 bo3. | ||
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FunnelC4kes
Ireland462 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:47 zaii wrote: it depends the guy coming from Losers bracket has to win 2 bo3 while the guy in the upper bracket has to win 1 bo3. I don't think so--are you referring to the match that decides which loser's bracket competitor moves up to the real finals? b/c it is possible for a loser's bracket competitor to play only a bo3 in the finals. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Nizzy
United States839 Posts
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butch
Belgium684 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:53 FunnelC4kes wrote: I don't think so--are you referring to the match that decides which loser's bracket competitor moves up to the real finals? b/c it is possible for a loser's bracket competitor to play only a bo3 in the finals. it's not. if MC would've won vs Losira he would've needed to win 2 bo3's vs MMA to take the tournament | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
 . Bo3 has been taken over from bw and as the game time etc is pretty similar the only reason to change this is that some viewers are greedy and want some matches to never end.As for a bo3 its used because a player won't play every map just at the start and would have to show of all his strats within facing 3 opponents. If they used up all their tricks within the first 2 opponents you would get bored (+ at weekend tournaments like dreamhack, people would be soo exhausted that the finals would be a click vs a click cheese, even with energy drinks !) Also a bo7 needs alot of preparation, to play it to the fullest. So having bo3 with loser bracket or bo5 at something like mlg or dreamhack is totally fine. Tons of reasons to do it like it is done. Probaly the biggest reason is it won't be more awesome to have people play more games. | ||
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
1) The extended series rule - most people don't like it 2) the final should be a Bo5 3) seeded players with too much of an advantage in terms of games to play compared to open players, its quite ridiculous you can have the superior players losing due to stamina issues. I think the way the pool play and open bracket are merged needs to be seriously looked at. Dreamhack was fine in my opinion. The main GSL tournament is good too. My only complaint would be with the code B, I think they need a losers bracket system in that because currently it seems like the luck of seeding has a huge amount to do with whether you qualify or not. I'm okay with NASL too, and MrCon your criticism makes no sense. They get 500 dollars even if they lose in the first round which is better than all the other tournaments, and its possible to out in the first round for all the other tournaments (open bracket for DH and MLG) anyway. I don't see your point. | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On June 21 2011 22:35 MrCon wrote: I understand that there are a lot of constraints. But is it impossible to change 3 matches, only the semis and finals, from bo3 to bo5 ? I'm not asking to change the whole format here. It's just that bo3 for finals are a joke, and tournament organizers should be aware of this, and at least find a way to make the finals bo5. Is it really a revolution that will destroy the schedule ? I mean it's a reasonable request, I'm not saying just do it it's easy, I'm saying I'm sure that it could fit in the schedule and in the end of tourney context, when there are only 2 or 3 matches total left to play. There should be a way to brainstorm a solution. And the point isn't only my personal entertainment, bo5 are a lot more fair and less random for players. Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to. So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals? I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen. It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy. I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:04 djWHEAT wrote: Well let's consider that at the last MLG event... MLG made the decision to actually broadcast the remainder of the final matches, which did make this end up going longer. The end result was that more people got to see those final games unfold... the consequence is that the event went 2-3 hours OVER what it was supposed to. So I guess I would ask you back. Would you rather see the last 4-5 games played out, or maybe only 2-3 and a BO5 finals? I do agree with your points about a bo5 being more fair and less random and I'm certainly NOT against your ideas, but I believe that one of the reasons we haven't seen that (at least from an MLG POV) is because of those logistics. Be careful when you say, "I'm sure it could fit in the schedule" because you'd be surprised just how tight the timeframes can be. And what seems simple to us, could actually cost the organization thousands of dollars to make even the "simplest" thing happen. It's honestly a tough thing to tackle because you have to balance fan desires, player accommodation, and event logistics - while trying to make everyone happy. I'm glad you brought it up though, because MLG has been very active in the community, and certainly it must be something they would consider or at least look at. About the MLG, I for sure prefer what happened (show all games) instead of not showing them but having a bo5  And yeah, the "I'm sure it would fit the schedule" was a bit bold. I like your post a lot tho, if the MLG staff are aware of it and try to consider it (if logistically possible) it's just what I ask I'm really not asking to throw more money at it, if it cost money then I consider my idea is bad. I already fear that all the awesome stuff MLG has done in Colombus is costing them a lot of money (just my sentiment, I have no numbers). | ||
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