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On June 21 2011 21:21 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:On June 21 2011 20:53 MrCon wrote:
The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame. Is there a confirmation of this? I'll be hesitant to believe it if it were from the overlays during the Group Selection broadcast, because they're prone to errors. No, that's why I said it seems, I don't know yet.
The schedule seems to allocate two days for the Ro8, which probably implies Bo5. 2 matches per day = 2 Bo5s (usually)
Going back to the topic though. I think that Bo5s in the Quarterfinals should probably be the best for most single elimination brackets. Bo3s in the Ro16 personally is alright. While most games end within 10-20 minutes, some games can go over the 30 minute mark and lead to 2 and half hours worth of games (breaks and stuff included).
It's not very practical in a tournament scheduling setting IMO. This is for all tournaments, including NASL. There are 8 games to play and if you were going to cast them all, it THEORETICALLY could take 2.5*8 = 20 hours to play and cast. Yeah I know the odds that all games go that long is almost 0, but still stretching games out too long is going to be quite draining on players, casters and even audiences.
As for MLG, yeah they definitely need to set their WB semifinals and finals to be a Bo5 or 7. I don't know how to address the extended series rule because I personally thing the previous winner should have a bit of an advantage. But I'm not really to fussed whether or not it's there.
As for the Grand finals, they should definitely make it a Bo7, and perhaps give the WB champion a 1-0 or 2-0 advantage for winning the WB (again, I think that a person who won earlier should be given a bit of an advantage) otherwise there's no point in a double elimination format.
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I agree that finals need a Bo7 and that semis need at least a Bo5 - but everything else I think is too exhausting for the players. Even if it can be done schedule-wise (here you have to think about stuff like Goody's TvT...even spectating nerds need sleep at some point), with the very tight playdays of MLG and DH I'm afraid that players might be too worn out from earlier rounds when it comes to the finals. And this, I'm sure, nobody wants.
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Honestly I dont think you'd be getting all angsty about this if the semi final games in dreamhack had been as exciting as you want. Changing it to a BO5 isnt the solution to this, being fortunate is the solution.
With events like DH particularly you also have no reason to be complaining about "downtime" between games because they were over so fast. They had SO MANY different events going on to watch. If you would just open your eyes you might find something new you like. Its actually amazing that DH managed to run on schedule and even have some time for the players in between games. The amount of LANs that are forced to run till God knows what unholy hour because they tried to cram too much into short a time is huge, and that is bad for the players and directly impacts on the quality of the games.
Sticking to a manageable format is by far the best way to go. BO5 COULD be manageable, but then if you get another set of longer games it could also NOT be.
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I think OSL/MSL has the best format. I have been pretty disappointed that both MLG and Dreamhack doesn't have Bo5 in Ro4.
Semifinals and Finals: Bo5
Bo7 is unnecessary for Finals in my opinion.
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pdd and sleepingdog, I agree fully, you said what I wanted to say better than how I said it ^^
I'm not asking to change every bo3 in bo9, just the last matches (finals, semis, and quarter if possible).
I would like to hear some players about this, and obviously tourney organizers.
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Time = Money. Everything that is set out is because of time.
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Not to mention, we see the players like what? 2 seconds each day? whats the point of them being there when they don't get shown to the public in most cases? (I know I'm exaggerating)
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I totally agree. There should be more bo5s or bo7s in the final stages of MLG/DH etc.
It is sad, but a huge part of games in sc2 are decided by random chance and i am afraid it will get worse with blizzards focus (atleast from my perspective) on just overall 50% winrates and not on how they are achieved in detail.
It is not as worse in tournaments as in ladder, since you can prepare for your opponent - but still .. + Show Spoiler +what would have happened if for example HuK scouted in the opposite direction in the last game on DH yesterday? What would have happened if he saw the hatch in the game before? What would have happened if he wasn't caught out of position the two games before, because he had to take the risk to pressure the zerg? What would have happened if Moon was able to scout the 4gate in the first game?
Seeing this randomness appear really makes me hate this game and reducing the format to a lot of bo3's makes it even worse :/
I'd really like to see players who repeatedly have the chance to defend their 1st place in tournaments, so everyone can see that there are persistent skill differences even on the highest level, but sadly this rarely or never happens.
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Bo7 really cuts on the excitement because there are so many games to play.
Ideally we would have Bo5 when possible and Bo3 as a compromise for time. But many event organizers have trouble understanding why would you need more than one game to determine a winner.
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DH has pretty tight schedule afaik, and the same arena is used for other stuff both before and after finals. They probably could fit in Bo5s most of the time, but to take into account two defensive players (typically terrans) making it into semis/finals, I doubt they can take that risk. I guess you could argue they should be more flexible, but you're still fucking up things for other people supposed to do other stuff in the arena. Another option would be to not play in the arena, but then you'd lose the epicness of huge crowd and cheering.
MLG might not have the same scheduling problem and afaik they have the same scene available for SC2 all the time, but they seem to have so many more games going on. And the extended series rule (please remove it asap imo) would make Bo5s or even Bo7s rather strange.
Overall I really think you should investigate all the possible scheduling issues of the tournaments beyond "look there was 30min unfilled time here, there could have been more games fit in!!!". Maybe there are more possibilities, but i doubt it.
Edit: And from what I've heard, players themselve sreally appreciate set schedules where they always know who will play who when. As a viewer it might be more enjoyable to just keep the games coming and let it take the time it takes, start next game when previous finishes. But I imagine as an organizer and player its the opposite.
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mlg has lb where u can fight throu till grandfinals ?!?!
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On June 21 2011 21:37 Thretau wrote:
I think OSL/MSL has the best format. I have been pretty disappointed that both MLG and Dreamhack doesn't have Bo5 in Ro4.
Semifinals and Finals: Bo5
Bo7 is unnecessary for Finals in my opinion.
Thing is SC1 and SC2 are different games. SC2 game times are on average shorter than SC1 games and at the present moment is more volatile (although a lot less).
Also, SC2 has somewhat developed its own tournament culture and it's more "standard" for a final to be Bo7. As SC2 gets less volatile and longer, it could be possible to reduce the Bo7 to a Bo5, but personally I still prefer the Bo7 finals to Bo5s. Makes for more entertaining series and a better comeback potential (Thorzain's comeback victory over Naniwa + Nestea MKP Game 7 was more thrilling than MKP Nestea Game 5).
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Remember that LANs like Dreamhack may run tournaments for dozens of other games besides SC2. There probably just isn't time during one weekend for more bo5/bo7 games when the tournament PCs, stage and so on are needed for other games as well.
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I want to see DH have BO5 in semis, BO7 in finals and hopefully not on Monday.
They also need to the make the streaming schedule more clear, had to switch between streams way too much just to find the player I wanted to spec without having a clear idea where to find it.
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Would be too many games for a 3 day event I think. MLG is already pretty demanding even if you are in pool play, not to mention the open bracket. Same goes for Dreamhack or similar events.
GSL is different because it's much longer.
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On June 21 2011 21:17 Xpace wrote:
They need to learn from TSL3
Online and replays sup son
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I personally feel that best way would be Bo3 group and bracket until semi would be played on bo5 final and bronze game should be played on bo7.
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For MLG I feel only the final needs to be BO5 due to the double elimination format. It should also be no problem for the extended series, as you just extend the old BO3 to a BO9 instead of a BO7.
And while we are on the subject:
We are on a MLG grand final. Winner and loser have already met, so we are in a extended series BO7 with the winner bracket player starting out with 2-1. Now the loser bracket played manages to bring the score to 2-4. Will the series be extended now once again to a BO11?
That would mean that if the MLG finals are BO5, they could be extended to BO15! Epic stuff.
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Personally I think it's fine. Long matches can get drawn out/boring after awhile. Yes I would've loved to see 5 games of Bomber/Moon or 7 games of HuK/Moon, but I don't want to see 5 or 7 games of Goody playing.
Plus, think about the players...
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OP: You don't have to lie to make your point. For instance, MLG is not single elimination, finals are not bo3. Also, what's the problem with single elimination after group play in DH? Do you not want players eliminated ever? Get real.
On June 21 2011 21:48 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 21:37 Thretau wrote:
I think OSL/MSL has the best format. I have been pretty disappointed that both MLG and Dreamhack doesn't have Bo5 in Ro4.
Semifinals and Finals: Bo5
Bo7 is unnecessary for Finals in my opinion. Thing is SC1 and SC2 are different games. SC2 game times are on average shorter than SC1 games and at the present moment is more volatile (although a lot less). Also, SC2 has somewhat developed its own tournament culture and it's more "standard" for a final to be Bo7. As SC2 gets less volatile and longer, it could be possible to reduce the Bo7 to a Bo5, but personally I still prefer the Bo7 finals to Bo5s. Makes for more entertaining series and a better comeback potential (Thorzain's comeback victory over Naniwa + Nestea MKP Game 7 was more thrilling than MKP Nestea Game 5).
What the hell? Because MKP vs Nestea game 7 was better than MKP vs Nestea game 5 you think Bo7's are better?
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EPT
