EPTMinimum APM required to "just macro" - Page 4
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
On June 21 2011 13:50 Morfildur wrote: Well, we can calculate how much APM are necessary for perfect macro: Assuming a 2-base terran with marine/tank/medivac/viking (i don't know the exact building counts, so YMMV): 2 Orbital Commands - 2 workers every 17 seconds (requires about 7 APM) 2 Mules every ~90 seconds (requires about 2 APM) 2 Rax with reactors - 4 marines every 25 seconds (requires about 10 APM) 1 Rax with tech lab - 1 marine every 25 seconds (requires about 2.4 APM) 2 Factories with tech lab (2 Tanks every 45 seconds (requires about 2.7 APM) 1 Starport with Reactor 2 Medivacs or Vikings every 42 seconds (requiers about 3 APM) So for perfect 2-base macro you need around 28 APM. Add about 5-10 for building selection, setting rallypoints, etc. and we have around 35-40 required APM for pure macro on 2 bases. Additional buildings of course increase the required APM. thank you for being alive | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:05 DaemonX wrote: Sorry, but...no. Just...no. If you actually think this, then you're just rationalising your own ranking. If you're not in masters, your macro needs work. If you're not in diamond, it's fucking appalling. This is just how it is. You don't macro well and stay in Gold. It's been proven countless times. It's even been shown you can get to diamond on pure macro using idiotic compositions like Queen only (Destiny did this). Hahahahahahahaha, no. Quit making such a big deal about leagues. You can have amazing macro and still lose if, for example, you never attack and your opponent gets you with Tier 3 units. Anyway, APM isn't really needed in large quantities. People keep saying "Oh, he ONLY has 50 APM", but to be honest, professionals with lower APM that still do well only proves that the only part of APM that matters is the efficiency (aside from having at least 30 or so APM to compare to a perfect situation). You can spam your hotkeys over and over, but the actual APM count isn't what matters. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
My friend is top8 Masters Zerg, and his average APM is ~60 - 70 pretty much every game. I guess maybe it varies on whether you are a mechanical player (think idra) or a tactical player (white-ra). I'm not saying you shouldn't be both, but from watching both players' streams, it's evident that white-ra's mechanics are much more laid back, and his apm is notably lower in comparison to idra? Even in BW, some players like Testie were reknowned for being low APM players. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
On June 21 2011 13:50 Morfildur wrote: Well, we can calculate how much APM are necessary for perfect macro: Assuming a 2-base terran with marine/tank/medivac/viking (i don't know the exact building counts, so YMMV): 2 Orbital Commands - 2 workers every 17 seconds (requires about 7 APM) 2 Mules every ~90 seconds (requires about 2 APM) 2 Rax with reactors - 4 marines every 25 seconds (requires about 10 APM) 1 Rax with tech lab - 1 marine every 25 seconds (requires about 2.4 APM) 2 Factories with tech lab (2 Tanks every 45 seconds (requires about 2.7 APM) 1 Starport with Reactor 2 Medivacs or Vikings every 42 seconds (requiers about 3 APM) So for perfect 2-base macro you need around 28 APM. Add about 5-10 for building selection, setting rallypoints, etc. and we have around 35-40 required APM for pure macro on 2 bases. Additional buildings of course increase the required APM. What about building each of those buildings? Making a command centre into an orbital? Adding addons? scouting? Adding units to control groups? Adding buildings to control groups? Setting camera hotkeys? Upgrades? I think you are massively underestimating how much the small things add up. Hell, for perfect macro, let's include mineral stacking at the beginning too. | ||
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Saishuuheiki
United States188 Posts
Likewise this applies to other expensive units such as VoidRay, Colossi, and hydralisks | ||
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On June 21 2011 12:30 Efemral wrote: Just from my own experience, I play all three races and my zerg has consistently a higher APM. You produce a bigger quantity of units so that should be the case yes. Anyway, I doubt people with under 70 APM actually does macro as well as they say they do. For me I can't even comprehend how some people play at a high level with under 100 as I feel I need a lot more APM with 150-170 in my games. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On June 22 2011 00:03 Valikyr wrote: You produce a bigger quantity of units so that should be the case yes. Anyway, I doubt people with under 70 APM actually does macro as well as they say they do. For me I can't even comprehend how some people play at a high level with under 100 as I feel I need a lot more APM with 150-170 in my games. That just means you're not efficient with your APM. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:36 Zeke50100 wrote: Leagues measure skill within a decent degree of precision. If you think your 42 apm Silver league placement is not really true, and you ACTUALLY are a diamond player if only people would stop cheesing you...you're kidding yourself.Hahahahahahahaha, no. Quit making such a big deal about leagues. You can have amazing macro and still lose if, for example, you never attack and your opponent gets you with Tier 3 units. Anyway, APM isn't really needed in large quantities. People keep saying "Oh, he ONLY has 50 APM", but to be honest, professionals with lower APM that still do well only proves that the only part of APM that matters is the efficiency (aside from having at least 30 or so APM to compare to a perfect situation). You can spam your hotkeys over and over, but the actual APM count isn't what matters. And you'll stay in at that level until the day you change your mindset. | ||
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
Either way, I think we can agree that SjoW's APM is probably the benchmark. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:48 mcclurg wrote: What about building each of those buildings? Making a command centre into an orbital? Adding addons? scouting? Adding units to control groups? Adding buildings to control groups? Setting camera hotkeys? Upgrades? I think you are massively underestimating how much the small things add up. Hell, for perfect macro, let's include mineral stacking at the beginning too. Most of those are one-time actions, so their influence on the APM is negligible and depending on a lot of other factors (length of the game, etc.). Building all the above buildings, OCs and addons requires about 20 actions over the time of about 10 minutes, so basically 2 APM on average, but after that you don't build a lot more production facilities. Scouting is not a macro action so it is not in the calculation. Upgrades are hard to calculate but in average they result in about 2 actions every 3 minutes (or 3-4 if you upgrade bio _and_ mech), so it's about 1 APM in average. The only other APM drain that i didn't include is building supply depots, but this depends on how you use the units, how many you lose, etc., which means it can't reliably be included into the calculation but should net about 5-6 APM if you never lose units. The biggest contributor to the APM are the repetitive actions (building units and tapping to check production). As i said in a previous post, it's the baseline, the absolute minimum. If you go higher (mineral stacking, tapping all production hotkeys every second, etc.) you will have better macro, but you need at least ~35-40 APM for constant production if you ignore all other factors. You can not under any circumstance go lower in this situation but you can always go higher. | ||
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
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Ashes
United States362 Posts
On June 21 2011 12:31 Mojar wrote: If your apm is around 50 on ladder games then your not keeping up with your macro at all sorry  my apm is around 130-140 avg and i still struggle to keep my macro going when their is a lot of battles occurring.sorry I disagree with you. EG Axslav plays at such a low APM, but he is on top of his Micro and Macro. So you dont have a valid point. APM gets solid as you play more and more and tend to repeat your builds and refine them | ||
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Greek820
Canada210 Posts
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Slaytilost
Netherlands968 Posts
5(hatch hotkey) S ZZZZ | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
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cantwait
9 Posts
On June 22 2011 00:22 coL.Minigun wrote: From my experience with coaching 75 would be BARE minimum 100 is a comfortable amount to have. 75 is the bare minimum for what kind of gameplay? Silver league? Grandmasters? Without stating for whom the rule applies, those numbers are meaningless. I know I'm comfortably up there in the Master league with well below 75 Macro APM even when I'm on my third base. | ||
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