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On June 08 2011 01:26 Mailing wrote:
No idea then.
Jan 11 was patch 1.2, which was extremely minor. No zerg nerfs or buffs and terran only had a bunker/scv building change. Can't remember what happened to the metagame back then
I think it was because Terran pretty much solved the TvZ matchup and figured out marine tank medivac is the way to go and Zerg were still on muta ling baneling which was hardcountered by this unit comp. So after the zergs adapted they found out they have the strongest late game unit broodlords and of course infestors or banelings to accompany it.
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On June 08 2011 03:48 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 02:37 KillerPenguin wrote:On June 08 2011 02:36 CScythe wrote:
I'm surprised P win rate is as high as it is given most P are still stubbornly sticking to old styles. I'm surprised how many people arrogantly think they understand the game better than the top pro's. I don't mean to start an argument here, but remember when this was said for zerg? And Zerg(Myself included) responded just how you did? And now Zerg play has changed things up, and started winning a lot more?
lol was about to say the same thing 
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On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran.
So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help.
Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech).
Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead.
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On June 08 2011 03:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:48 Seam wrote:On June 08 2011 02:37 KillerPenguin wrote:On June 08 2011 02:36 CScythe wrote:
I'm surprised P win rate is as high as it is given most P are still stubbornly sticking to old styles. I'm surprised how many people arrogantly think they understand the game better than the top pro's. I don't mean to start an argument here, but remember when this was said for zerg? And Zerg(Myself included) responded just how you did? And now Zerg play has changed things up, and started winning a lot more? lol was about to say the same thing
I really think Protoss's issues are with the current metagame, going from what we've seen in the past.
Maybe it's a slight balance issue, but I highly doubt it's as bit as the graph says.
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On June 08 2011 04:00 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:50 blade55555 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:48 Seam wrote:On June 08 2011 02:37 KillerPenguin wrote:On June 08 2011 02:36 CScythe wrote:
I'm surprised P win rate is as high as it is given most P are still stubbornly sticking to old styles. I'm surprised how many people arrogantly think they understand the game better than the top pro's. I don't mean to start an argument here, but remember when this was said for zerg? And Zerg(Myself included) responded just how you did? And now Zerg play has changed things up, and started winning a lot more? lol was about to say the same thing I really think Protoss's issues are with the current metagame, going from what we've seen in the past. Maybe it's a slight balance issue, but I highly doubt it's as bit as the graph says.
less than 5% shouldnt be a balance issue
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On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead.
Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges.
Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg.
Apples and oranges, you can't compare them.
Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive.
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On June 08 2011 04:02 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:00 Seam wrote:On June 08 2011 03:50 blade55555 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:48 Seam wrote:On June 08 2011 02:37 KillerPenguin wrote:On June 08 2011 02:36 CScythe wrote:
I'm surprised P win rate is as high as it is given most P are still stubbornly sticking to old styles. I'm surprised how many people arrogantly think they understand the game better than the top pro's. I don't mean to start an argument here, but remember when this was said for zerg? And Zerg(Myself included) responded just how you did? And now Zerg play has changed things up, and started winning a lot more? lol was about to say the same thing I really think Protoss's issues are with the current metagame, going from what we've seen in the past. Maybe it's a slight balance issue, but I highly doubt it's as bit as the graph says. less than 5% shouldnt be a balance issue
I prolly should have said as big as people will make it seem.
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On June 08 2011 04:00 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:50 blade55555 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:48 Seam wrote:On June 08 2011 02:37 KillerPenguin wrote:On June 08 2011 02:36 CScythe wrote:
I'm surprised P win rate is as high as it is given most P are still stubbornly sticking to old styles. I'm surprised how many people arrogantly think they understand the game better than the top pro's. I don't mean to start an argument here, but remember when this was said for zerg? And Zerg(Myself included) responded just how you did? And now Zerg play has changed things up, and started winning a lot more? lol was about to say the same thing I really think Protoss's issues are with the current metagame, going from what we've seen in the past. Maybe it's a slight balance issue, but I highly doubt it's as bit as the graph says.
The current slump sure. The worrying part is the serious lack of even decent Protoss players. There are a bunch of up and coming Zergs plus a few heavy hitters. There are dozens of decent to awesome Terrans. There are a couple of good tosses, and a couple of up and comers. That's it. That issue is from before the ZvP metagame shift.
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Interesting stats.
I personally don't think there is a guessing game going on for any of the races and if then toss should be the one complaining and definetly not zerg.
People just want to scout for free and be able to just build without having to adjust to anything the opponent is doing.
As much as my games are concerned the time i get suprised by something is when i am getting proxied (talking of proxy stargate or starport). But I prefer playing a save buildorder and punish greedy eco play, rather then trying to compete in pumping workers and changing to attack mode suddenly.
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On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive.
Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in and force fields to protect them, and have scans and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ?
Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ?
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Zerg is acutely vulnerable to the unexpected because of their production mechanic. They will always be vulnerable to the latest fad hidden allin. If you don't like that then yeah, switch races to something that can wall off.
Zerg is never going to get the great scouting people want, because it would break them completely. You can't let a player both know everything and devote all their production to whatever they choose.
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On June 08 2011 04:10 Hristiyan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive. Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in, have scans, force fields and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ? Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ?
I would rather say it is doing a surprisingly good job.
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On June 08 2011 04:10 Hristiyan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive. Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in and force fields to protect them, and have scans and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ? Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ?
build 1 spine crawler...terran "cheese" destroyed. collect free win.
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On June 08 2011 04:19 DevanT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:10 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive. Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in and force fields to protect them, and have scans and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ? Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ? build 1 spine crawler...terran "cheese" destroyed. collect free win.
6 rax makes one spine crawler look like a tooth pick on a spring. Just sayin.
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This just in! I have the PvP win rate graph for 5692 games! It looks like this:
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On June 08 2011 04:20 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:19 DevanT wrote:On June 08 2011 04:10 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive. Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in and force fields to protect them, and have scans and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ? Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ? build 1 spine crawler...terran "cheese" destroyed. collect free win. 6 rax makes one spine crawler look like a tooth pick on a spring. Just sayin.
Please stop.
6rax allins are really easy to stop. If you scout no gas for the terran, he is either 2 raxing( in which case he would have already been there ) 1rax FE or a mass rax allin. In any case, teching to banelings after the initial bunker rush timing is over without action when you're still in the dark will keep you safe from any non-gas terran push.
A spinecrawler deals well with 2rax pushes and scarying off hellions unless they go mass hellion. Infact, most terran allins can be dealt with correct control between queens, banelings, zerglings and spinecrawlers.
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MLG Anaheim would have IdrA and MC in same group!
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The guy is saying that one way or another that issue will be addressed for all 3 races. However if HotS is 1 year away and so is the solution, then this race is pointless right now or a coin-flip at best.
The other two races can wait, but not that one .... solution is needed right now!
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On June 08 2011 04:26 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:20 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 04:19 DevanT wrote:On June 08 2011 04:10 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 04:02 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead. Your math is not sound at all. 2 scans =! 4 overlords. You can't compare apples and oranges. Regardless, the point remains that Zerg CANNOT prevent a Terran from scanning. When you scan, you get information. There's nothing a Zerg can do about it except move buildings, and if you don't get information from your scan, that's YOUR fault. Zerg has to sacrifice overlords, and if you stick marines around the edge of your base, that overlord isn't guaranteed to get information. It's a hope and pray situation for Zerg. Apples and oranges, you can't compare them. Also, if you don't know what tech he's going before 10 minutes into the game, you're playing Terran wrong. Turtle less, drop more, be more aggressive. Ok, Kim admits that there are scouting issues with the 3 races, but the other two races are not that much vulnerable az zerg is early game, cuz they can wall-in and force fields to protect them, and have scans and hallucinations to scout. In what rightful mind, do you know such an issue and say "well if players don't solve that till HotS, we're gonna address those issues then". Am i supposed to switch races till then, or just continue to rage when i get cheesed by terrans like hell ? Jeasus Christ, is that balance team retarded or what ..... ? build 1 spine crawler...terran "cheese" destroyed. collect free win. 6 rax makes one spine crawler look like a tooth pick on a spring. Just sayin. Please stop. 6rax allins are really easy to stop. If you scout no gas for the terran, he is either 2 raxing( in which case he would have already been there ) 1rax FE or a mass rax allin. In any case, teching to banelings after the initial bunker rush timing is over without action when you're still in the dark will keep you safe from any non-gas terran push. A spinecrawler deals well with 2rax pushes and scarying off hellions unless they go mass hellion. Infact, most terran allins can be dealt with correct control between queens, banelings, zerglings and spinecrawlers.
That doesn't seem to agree with pro players say. For example, Mym Cloud says differently, that is difficult to stop an all-in terran as zerg, and that you have to all-in on defense to defend.
Personally I think Cloud knows what he's talking about a lot more than you do.
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On June 08 2011 03:54 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 02:25 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 02:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On June 08 2011 01:37 Hristiyan wrote:On June 08 2011 01:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
So you say that building defense instead of workers stopped all-in aggression? What a strange concept! But why do you call it blind? Don't you think that it might have something to do with Zergs sending out a worker just like the other 2 races in order to scout their opponents opening BO?
It doesn't work that way dude. There are situations in which, the chances to get any intel inside of a terran's base are entirely based on the skill level of the terran. Playing a blind guessing game will not make your game play skill based and there will be many,many, many situations vs macro terrans in which you'll be like "Why did i loose ? I did everything right". And the answer is "Because you lost the macro game, while trying to win the guessing one". I personally as a Master league zerg in EU server HIGHLY disagree win Day[9] and his "assumptions" but thats just me. As i said, in that ZvT graphics, the blue and red lines will never cross paths, untill the guessing game is over and the result of the match up, actually becomes skill based. Dude, there are situations where the chances to get any intel inside of a zerg base are entirely based on the skill level of the Zerg. Namely all situations after lings are out and where you cannot expend 3+ scans to check the Zerg tech.. Bulls**t! Even though i'm sure a terran player can determine the zerg tech route only with 2 scans ( one early game on the natural , to see the drone saturation and determine if he is all-ining or not and another to see if he is going mutas or infestors ), even if you needed more, many people are building macro orbitals nowadays just to scan, produce extra SCVs and drop mules. You are having reapers too, which are very hard to deny without leaving them with any intel , if the terran player is good. Terran's scout is undeniable and your problems ( if there is any chance that you have any with that race ) comes from the fact that you are greedy. However it doesn't matter if i decide to sack overlords or not, since the amount of intel that i'm gonna be able to gain by sacking those overlords is entirely based on the skill level of the terran. So to determine if Zerg goes muta or infestor, I cannot use scans, if the Zergs actually use their creep spread and put their tech not next to the main base. With the map awareness of Zerg coupled with the fact that speedlings are faster than any scout you cannot tell for sure until you are hit by one, and then it's too late. Also roach aggression can be done with quite a high drone count, so scanning the nat won't always help. Zerg saying that Terran should expend 2 scans is like Terrans suggesting that Zerg should sack 4 overlords. Both is expensive and not guaranteed to net results. Later in the game, scouting gets better and better for Zerg (speed ovies plus the space requirements for Terran structures) while worse for Terran (as there is more of the map where Zerg could hide his tech). Selective whining about Zerg scouting is just this - whining. It's just popularized by a certain Zerg figurehead.
I don't even know where to begin.
2 scans = 4 overlords? Please... Can we get rid of this notion that you lose money when you scan? You only get money faster.
Late game Terran has tons of orbitals. I don't even understand how you can go with the notion that Terran late game scouting is terrible when Terrans scan the shit out of the creep and kill the creep tumors constantly when they can simply save those "precious scans" by making a Raven. Plus, I don't recall people whining about late game Zerg scouting, it's the early game where it's extremely difficult to gather good intel against a good player watching the edges of his base. Zerg can't prevent scans from scouting tech.
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EPT
