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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout. Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. | ||
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bramapanzer
83 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote: lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo | ||
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote: This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 07 2011 23:11 Yaotzin wrote: Uh yes? That's the trend: Korean Protosses are doing horribly. Not sure why you're disagreeing. 4% difference and you say "doing horribly" .... should i say it? Yea... I'm going to say it... I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with the statistics. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:01 Konsume wrote: or that zerg has an horrible learning curve and that everytime you're fighting someone of your level he always seems to have the easiest way around?  it seems to me that some players are confusing "balanced" and "how hard is one race compared to another".... but that's just me  Yes and you are confusing how hard zerg is to play with how hard it is to play other races. Seriously stfu. I play Protoss 1v1, by choice (EN TARO ADUN TASSADAR!). That being said playing zerg at my level of play is honestly not harder. You are in denial sir. I can pretty much guarantee you that I would play better with zerg (as I feel I have a natural affinity to play them) at least at the level I'm currently at. Does it mean I will switch to get promoted, hell fucking no. I play for fun, some people are better than others at different things, and there are many things that can make you a good sc player. Zerg requires a different skill set (I would argue less skill, more tactical thinking, and positioning). Seriously, you have 1 fucking building to macro with, and can instantly tech switch if you want. Most zerg players don't use their units in every situation that they can or should because they are afraid of needlessly losing them (thats a skill issue). The ability to gain map control and build +10 drones at once, may not come naturally to all players, but its something zerg can and should do. Having some kind of RTS mind I can understand this concept, and can try and use my units to their full potential to meet this need. Seriously I'm soo fucking sick of players whining and saying cheese this or cheese that, when they just want to A move 40 roaches or Marauders into my base for an easy win. Protoss and Terran are not easier to play, get over yourself bud. | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
That race has the least scouting problems. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
Morrow admits in a recent interview that zerg is pretty balanced now. | ||
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bramapanzer
83 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote: So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote: Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down eh what? vs terran - 2 to 6 rax pressure early game - 2 rax all-in + scv with supply trick (which is deadly on 2 player map or 4 player close position - Fast 2 reapers which is easily stoppable but you lose all your timing on queen injects AND might lose a couple drones - Hellions blue flame like 4mins in the game? (might be exagerating on this one) - Than cloacked banshees - 1-2 Vicking harass on O.V. (like we saw this week-end) - Finaly ends with 2-3 Medivac+marine+stim simultanious drop on every expos (which are comming a couple mins before mutas vs toss - 4 gates - 2 gates + voidray - 2 gates + 5 phoenix and voidrays - 3 gates + DTs - Coupled with the fact that they can fast expand safly in most maps vs a zerg.... you only need 2-3 canons But I see a trend here... its how... uneasy it is to scout a terran/protoss early game with ultra slow OVs and also how zerg has no "fast" anti-air units. Queens gets killed 1v1 vs banshee and vs voidrays and coupled with the fact that it takes 45s (or near) to make.... and that it slows your lair and that you don't need many of em to be honest = Zergs early game = urhhh! To be honest I find middle and late game to be pretty balanced.... I just hate the 1st 10 mins of all my games to the point where I almost rerolled terran but.... I man'up and I got promoted to master a couple days ago! | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:14 Hristiyan wrote: Its very easy to predict a zerg cheese with terran. You just scan once his natural at the specific time and the drone saturation will tell you the truth. You have a wall-in, which you can make very hard to bust and/or can get marauders precautionary if you have doubts of benelings busts .... or just scan again if you have real doubts or send a reaper. That race has the least scouting problems. But you now that Scan-Scouting costs you as much as sending 2 Overlords? | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
- Coupled with the fact that they can fast expand safly in most maps vs a zerg.... you only need 2-3 canons What | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
To be honest I find middle and late game to be pretty balanced Totally agree with that. ZvT is the most balanced match-up late game in my opinion ( after the mirrors ), but early game is just a joke if the terran decides to abuse you. | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote: I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:18 Binabik wrote: But you now that Scan-Scouting costs you as much as sending 2 Overlords? IF you lose 2 ovies thats 200 minerals and (you start with one too) 2 larvae. IF you scan thats a potential 400 minerals your not getting IF you build observers your using your robo to not make colossus or immortals There is no such thing as a free lunch. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
It's sad to see really strong players like Tyler losing a Colossus to Vikings because they don't have perfect army control. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:12 starcraft911 wrote: 4% difference and you say "doing horribly" .... should i say it? Yea... I'm going to say it... I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with the statistics. Learn to read. I wrote Korean Protosses. Mailing and I were both talking purely about Korean Protoss players and how well they are doing. | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
On June 08 2011 05:18 Binabik wrote: But you now that Scan-Scouting costs you as much as sending 2 Overlords? Scans don't cost anything ! If it costs 2 overlords, you would have to collect N minerals and then spent it on the scan! Thats why people build macro orbital commands. They cost X minerals, you use it as a part of a very strong wall-in, you produce extra SCVs from it, you can always float it to ur 3rd and you can constantly scan on the full price of the cost of the orbital command ! Stop saying that Scans cost X minerals, THEY DONT ! | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On June 08 2011 04:32 Frozenserpent wrote: That doesn't seem to agree with pro players say. For example, Mym Cloud says differently, that is difficult to stop an all-in terran as zerg, and that you have to all-in on defense to defend. Personally I think Cloud knows what he's talking about a lot more than you do. That is your opinion. Blindly believing what pros say will make that sentiment a truth. Personally, if I can get inside a terran base and scout if they take their gas or not with my scouting drone, I can be safe against any terran all in that isnt close position metal/shattered. Be it 6rax, 2rax, 2port banshee or hellion marauder. If people aren't using a scouting drone versus a terran, then thats completely their decision to miss out on crucial scouting information in favour of a couple of minerals. Here's the thing, even if you have to counter all in to defeat the all in. You can drone up much faster than his scv's can, giving you a good midgame. Im not saying it is not difficult, but its certainly not impossible to stop most allins on balanced positions. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
 October clearly reflected the major patch right? With the reaper nerf etc. | ||
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