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On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese.
You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo?
A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post.
Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker"
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Funny how Terran is always doing well.
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On June 08 2011 04:46 Hristiyan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 04:36 Anomalist0032 wrote:
I like how people bring up hallucinate and scan like their free, but then saccing an ovy is atrocious in the cost value.
If the most imbalanced early game scout solution - pneomatized carapace required a spawning pool and now a Lair, zerg would be as much behind resource and tech wise as the protoss would be with getting a hallucination. On top of that i would loose a supply source and 100 minerals for a slower scout, and you would loose X sentry energy for a fast one. So please don't talk about that. I'm not saying thats the proper solution, but i'm saying if that was true, the tosses and zergs would have an equal early game scouting and STILL the terrans would have by far the best one.
People at least need to know that even if terrans don't use the mule we still could have done the the supply call down spell which guarantees each scan to at least lose 100 minerals...
I am just gonna say this terrans are gonna stop scanning as a use for scout because its silly. You can pretty much figure out what each player is doing by sending out a reaper or floating building..
Scans will be primarily used for exclusively TvT and detection in the future imo as terran player its easier to send a marine ahead to scout.
Unless of course HOTS decides to have zerg upgrade building burrow and u gotta scan for buildings yikes.
Zergs are so predictable that I pretty much never throw a scan because all my harass makes them transparent as day. The tvz matchup is pretty much solved tank marine medivac counters all early game stuff zerg can throw at you.
Toss is the only race that has the edge on hiding tech like dt. stargate play and if you just open the standard good ol 2 rax expo with a missile turret and bunker your always guaranteed to be able to hold off 90% of whatever toss has to throw at you.
Ah its so good to be terran XD
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On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo
Your Terran pressures are are all the same. Either Hellion and/or marines. More Raxes is the equivalent of Zerg dedicating more larve to early pressure units so don't put that Terran has tons of choices. Zerg can just as easily, or even more easily do early pressure with Lings,Blings,Roaches.
Also if I expoed first no dip i won't have !@#$ as the 6 min mark. I some races could FE and put tons of pressure that would be pretty OP.
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But I see a trend here... its how... uneasy it is to scout a terran/protoss early game with ultra slow OVs and also how zerg has no "fast" anti-air units.
You don't need an OV sac to scout a protoss. Geysers and a lack of information gives you a world of information, unless you want to see every structure and unit he has at x time, then you're fucked. Terran is a different monster though.
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On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker"
2 Rax expo is very stoppable. Have an ovie over the nat to spot the bunker. Pull some workers. Micro. It happens all the time.
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On June 08 2011 05:29 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo Your Terran pressures are are all the same. Either Hellion and/or marines. More Raxes is the equivalent of Zerg dedicating more larve to early pressure units so don't put that Terran has tons of choices. Zerg can just as easily, or even more easily do early pressure with Lings,Blings,Roaches. Also if I expoed first no dip i won't have !@#$ as the 6 min mark. I some races could FE and put tons of pressure that would be pretty OP.
You obviously don't play zerg.
Just because they use the same units doesn't mean they require the same response. Oh and try pressuring a terran with speedlings, plz, let me know how that goes and get back to me.
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On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:
lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran
1, 2 rax + bunker
2. reactored helion
on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker
reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down I'm not sure why you'd post if you don't know what you are talking about. You can scout if it's reactor hellion or 2rax fairly easily as zerg, and you can auto lose 90% of your games against half of the variants of 2rax with the response you posted. Hellions are also really common and really difficult to deal with on Xel'Naga, because if you don't go roaches and he goes blue flame you might as well leave.
The real danger vs P/T is what comes after that very, very early stage.
Two port banshee will 100% kill a zerg who is not rushing toward mutalisks or massing queens. You can two port banshee after 2rax+cc or reactor hellion. 2port after failure was even done in the MLG, and every time I try to watch how a pro handles it they flat out lose unless they were doing 9 minute muta, by some miracle were allowed to scout it, or the 2 port comes next to spire timing.
You can also ambiguously get blue flame, even producing a tank in between if the zerg does manage to scout or keep poking, and it is a complete nightmare on maps like xel'naga (or any good hellion map, xel'naga is just a really obvious one.)
Both of those will result in a loss if you are not prepared. It's also nearly impossible to tell if he is megaraxing you or 2rax expanding if he plays it properly on most maps and spawns. Most zergs learn to deal with this by switching in to "it's probably coming" mode as soon as they are unable to confirm what is going on beyond no intial gas, but again if the terran is just playing you for a fool this will put you significantly behind.
Edit: I'm not sure why people think anyone is talking about 2rax or reactor hellion when anyone is talking about difficulty scouting. Both are perfectly stoppable and scoutable.
The problem is you are forced to guess the follow up, no matter who you are, and it's depressing watching professional players make the same guesses and getting them wrong. Zerg is disproportionately strong once mutas hit the field provided the terran doesn't have a solid push setup already - that's a point in the matchup where terran is hurting and zerg gets fun because you are now ahead, but prior to that point it really is stressful to play because you might have to quit from your poker loss at any given moment.
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On June 08 2011 05:32 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:29 GinDo wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo Your Terran pressures are are all the same. Either Hellion and/or marines. More Raxes is the equivalent of Zerg dedicating more larve to early pressure units so don't put that Terran has tons of choices. Zerg can just as easily, or even more easily do early pressure with Lings,Blings,Roaches. Also if I expoed first no dip i won't have !@#$ as the 6 min mark. I some races could FE and put tons of pressure that would be pretty OP. You obviously don't play zerg. Just because they use the same units doesn't mean they require the same response. Oh and try pressuring a terran with speedlings, plz, let me know how that goes and get back to me.
Well MMA lost his nat to speedlings like 5 times at MLG :D
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On June 08 2011 05:32 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:29 GinDo wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo Your Terran pressures are are all the same. Either Hellion and/or marines. More Raxes is the equivalent of Zerg dedicating more larve to early pressure units so don't put that Terran has tons of choices. Zerg can just as easily, or even more easily do early pressure with Lings,Blings,Roaches. Also if I expoed first no dip i won't have !@#$ as the 6 min mark. I some races could FE and put tons of pressure that would be pretty OP. You obviously don't play zerg. Just because they use the same units doesn't mean they require the same response. Oh and try pressuring a terran with speedlings, plz, let me know how that goes and get back to me.
Hellions-Spines or Roaches
Marines-Spines or Roaches
Marines and Hellions-Spines or Roaches
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This will change once Protoss figures out how to counter the new Zerg stuff. Zerg will have good results for a month and then it's Zerg sucking for 4 months again.
You heard it hear first.
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On June 08 2011 05:33 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:32 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:29 GinDo wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo Your Terran pressures are are all the same. Either Hellion and/or marines. More Raxes is the equivalent of Zerg dedicating more larve to early pressure units so don't put that Terran has tons of choices. Zerg can just as easily, or even more easily do early pressure with Lings,Blings,Roaches. Also if I expoed first no dip i won't have !@#$ as the 6 min mark. I some races could FE and put tons of pressure that would be pretty OP. You obviously don't play zerg. Just because they use the same units doesn't mean they require the same response. Oh and try pressuring a terran with speedlings, plz, let me know how that goes and get back to me. Well MMA lost his nat to speedlings like 5 times at MLG :D
So true. And don't forget the Kyrix Econ bust. That gets me all the time.
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On June 08 2011 05:30 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker" 2 Rax expo is very stoppable. Have an ovie over the nat to spot the bunker. Pull some workers. Micro. It happens all the time.
Of course 2 rax expo is stoppable, I was using hyperbole as an argument. What I was trying to illustrate, is that if you think the terran is 2rax all-inning and he is actually 2rax-expoing, you will be in serous trouble in about 4 minutes
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On June 08 2011 05:34 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:30 GinDo wrote:On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker" 2 Rax expo is very stoppable. Have an ovie over the nat to spot the bunker. Pull some workers. Micro. It happens all the time. Of course 2 rax expo is stoppable, I was using hyperbole as an argument. What I was trying to illustrate, is that if you think the terran is 2rax all-inning and he is actually 2rax-expoing, you will be in serous trouble in about 4 minutes
Yes yes if you make anything but drones you're behind yawn. Stop listening to Idra please.
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On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker"
Your response lists out possible tactics that terran can do before 6 minutes. Then you list out what the zerg can have without taking in consideration of what a terran have. Isn't that replying to him with a biased thought that zergs can only play a macro game while terran can do anything he wants?
In addition, you pointed out a random timing on a baneling bust which is not true at all depending on how economic the baneling bust is. Roach openings are also a possibility in which you forgot to mention and they are safe without being all-in.
Scouting? I read the whole chain of posts and clearly you responded to the previous poster saying that a terran can do more than just reactored hellions and 2 rax bunker rushes, while being wrong on what the zerg can do.
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On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant.
The major differences here are:
Terran CAN scan. If you CAN do it, it's an option and therefore you can't complain about it not being an option.
Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary.
-Zerg can sac overlords and HOPE that the opponent isn't paying attention.
-Zerg can't get a zergling past a wallin.
-Zerg can't make a generalist unit that is going to be good against everything until we get an observer out.
-Zerg can't compete with Terrans economy specifically unless they are a base ahead. (this is due to not only the MULE, but also the drone mechanic in the early game)
-Zerg has no 4-gate-like build that forces Terran to build a decent amount of units or die without going completely all-in. (if you think transitioning out of a 4-gate is hard, try transitioning out of a bling bust)
-Terran specifically has at least 4 different early-game aggressive openings that will outright kill a Zerg if not properly scouted.
All of these things add up to making early game incredibly frustrating for Zerg at ALL levels. Not necessarily imba, I think Zerg is doing surprisingly well lately, but really really frustrating to say the least.
There is no easy answer to it, unlike the 3-gate robo. You can't just stick to the one build until you feel more confident seeing small identifiers that will allow you to stray away from it. There is no safe build for Zerg. There is only cross your fingers and hope you guess right. Maybe if you play enough, you'll start to pick up on the indicators that you should be looking for.
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On June 08 2011 05:01 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 23:25 dani` wrote:
Good job. Every time a Zerg whines again after I defeat him about how "stupidly imbalanced" Protoss is I will point him to this so he can see it's all roughly equal so he can conclude he just played horribly =) or that zerg has an horrible learning curve and that everytime you're fighting someone of your level he always seems to have the easiest way around?  it seems to me that some players are confusing "balanced" and "how hard is one race compared to another".... but that's just me 
Oh cut it with the Z is harder to play crap. You guys have been pulling that since beta and it's really not true anymore once you get above Platinum.
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On June 08 2011 05:33 GinDo wrote:
Hellions-Spines or Roaches
Marines-Spines or Roaches
Marines and Hellions-Spines or Roaches
2 Port Banshee- Spores and Roaches. Haaahahahhahah sorry. Had to say it.
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3gate robo is as fucking awful as some 3spine crawler + mass queen build from zerg. They both keep you 100% safe until you die from overwhelming economy 5 minutes later.
eta: oh did you actually mean 3gate robo in pvz not pvt? If so you're more clueless than you can possibly imagine haha.
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On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. ... Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary.
3 gate robo against zerg??? OMG You don't really play toss do you?
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EPT
