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On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. The major differences here are: Terran CAN scan. If you CAN do it, it's an option and therefore you can't complain about it not being an option. Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary. -Zerg can sac overlords and HOPE that the opponent isn't paying attention. -Zerg can't get a zergling past a wallin. -Zerg can't make a generalist unit that is going to be good against everything until we get an observer out. -Zerg can't compete with Terrans economy specifically unless they are a base ahead. (this is due to not only the MULE, but also the drone mechanic in the early game) -Zerg has no 4-gate-like build that forces Terran to build a decent amount of units or die without going completely all-in. (if you think transitioning out of a 4-gate is hard, try transitioning out of a bling bust) -Terran specifically has at least 4 different early-game aggressive openings that will outright kill a Zerg if not properly scouted. All of these things add up to making early game incredibly frustrating for Zerg at ALL levels. Not necessarily imba, I think Zerg is doing surprisingly well lately, but really really frustrating to say the least. There is no easy answer to it, unlike the 3-gate robo. You can't just stick to the one build until you feel more confident seeing small identifiers that will allow you to stray away from it. There is no safe build for Zerg. There is only cross your fingers and hope you guess right. Maybe if you play enough, you'll start to pick up on the indicators that you should be looking for.
You do have a point but you fail to understand several points.
First, terran's scan do not reveal zerg's whole base. It is a risk just like sacing an overlord. Smart zergs these days always try to hide tech using creep spread.
Second, going 3 gate robo into expansion puts you behind economically and by far is not 100% safe. It is however, the safest build a protoss can do. A good comparison in the zerg's perspective would be having to play safe by putting down static defense while putting yourself behind economically.
Also note that baneling busts can win games outright also. Most baneling busts are unscouted, even at the highest levels. Though terran does seem to be more safe wit the wall in, you can argue that zergs can be equally safe just by making more queens. Though about the variety of things a terran can do, they can be scouted as easily as just seeing whether the terran has a gas or not or even how constantly he is making marines.
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On June 08 2011 05:44 TiBe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. ... Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary. 3 gate robo against zerg??? OMG You don't really play toss do you?
The assumption was vs Terran... You know... the race that is hard to scout... Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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It'd be very interesting to see "milestones" in the chart, like the discovery and popularity of certain builds, patches and game changes, map-pool changes, etc. What's causing these changes in win ratios?
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On June 08 2011 05:40 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker" Your response lists out possible tactics that terran can do before 6 minutes. Then you list out what the zerg can have without taking in consideration of what a terran have. Isn't that replying to him with a biased thought that zergs can only play a macro game while terran can do anything he wants? In addition, you pointed out a random timing on a baneling bust which is not true at all depending on how economic the baneling bust is. Roach openings are also a possibility in which you forgot to mention and they are safe without being all-in. Scouting? I read the whole chain of posts and clearly you responded to the previous poster saying that a terran can do more than just reactored hellions and 2 rax bunker rushes, while being wrong on what the zerg can do.
Random time for baneling bust? It's the fastest bust after speed and hatch first...
Ok, let me list the AGGRESSIVE things zerg can do before 6 minutes, for fairness:
early pool lings - really can only do 6 pool to get in before wall off, can be denied by good scv micro and leaves zerg around 10 workers behind and on the same # of bases as terran, essentially an all in
1 base roach/speedling - Hits around 6:50-730, all of terran's pressure will get there before roaches pop and will be able to scout warren and return to build defenses
1 base baneling bust - Hits around 6:30, if this does not kill workers, zerg will be again be behind about 5-10 workers and on even expansion.
So as you can see, none of the zerg aggression hits before 6 minutes except the 6 pool, all can easily be scouted by lack of expo (or lack of drones at expo) during terran early game pressure. I think you all are forgetting that one of the most important reasons terran pressure is not just to get the zerg to make more units, its also to scout....
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On June 08 2011 05:13 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:01 Konsume wrote:On June 07 2011 23:25 dani` wrote:
Good job. Every time a Zerg whines again after I defeat him about how "stupidly imbalanced" Protoss is I will point him to this so he can see it's all roughly equal so he can conclude he just played horribly =) or that zerg has an horrible learning curve and that everytime you're fighting someone of your level he always seems to have the easiest way around?  it seems to me that some players are confusing "balanced" and "how hard is one race compared to another".... but that's just me  Yes and you are confusing how hard zerg is to play with how hard it is to play other races. Seriously stfu. I play Protoss 1v1, by choice (EN TARO ADUN TASSADAR!). That being said playing zerg at my level of play is honestly not harder. You are in denial sir. I can pretty much guarantee you that I would play better with zerg (as I feel I have a natural affinity to play them) at least at the level I'm currently at. Does it mean I will switch to get promoted, hell fucking no. I play for fun, some people are better than others at different things, and there are many things that can make you a good sc player. Zerg requires a different skill set (I would argue less skill, more tactical thinking, and positioning). Seriously, you have 1 fucking building to macro with, and can instantly tech switch if you want. Most zerg players don't use their units in every situation that they can or should because they are afraid of needlessly losing them (thats a skill issue). The ability to gain map control and build +10 drones at once, may not come naturally to all players, but its something zerg can and should do. Having some kind of RTS mind I can understand this concept, and can try and use my units to their full potential to meet this need. Seriously I'm soo fucking sick of players whining and saying cheese this or cheese that, when they just want to A move 40 roaches or Marauders into my base for an easy win. Protoss and Terran are not easier to play, get over yourself bud.
My face naturally fell into my palm after reading this post.
When you're saying "at my level" I'm going to assume you're bronze.
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Zerg CLEARLY have done very well against Terrans lately.
But they clearly need more early game scouting options against T . But don't blame the Terran race ... blame Zerg for not having enough scouting options. Blizzard please make this happen.
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On June 08 2011 05:49 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:44 TiBe wrote:On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. ... Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary. 3 gate robo against zerg??? OMG You don't really play toss do you? The assumption was vs Terran... You know... the race that is hard to scout... Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
You know how you sigh when people say you should build roaches and more queens and some spine crawlers and a spore crawler and you'll be safe? That's 3gate robo.
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On June 08 2011 05:52 ShooTouts wrote:
Zerg CLEARLY have done very well against Terrans lately.
But they clearly need more early game scouting options against T . But don't blame the Terran race ... blame Zerg for not having enough scouting options. Blizzard please make this happen.
Having perfect scouting would mean Zerg could just drone whore to hell against T/P without any risk. You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.
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On June 08 2011 05:51 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:13 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 08 2011 05:01 Konsume wrote:On June 07 2011 23:25 dani` wrote:
Good job. Every time a Zerg whines again after I defeat him about how "stupidly imbalanced" Protoss is I will point him to this so he can see it's all roughly equal so he can conclude he just played horribly =) or that zerg has an horrible learning curve and that everytime you're fighting someone of your level he always seems to have the easiest way around? it seems to me that some players are confusing "balanced" and "how hard is one race compared to another".... but that's just me Yes and you are confusing how hard zerg is to play with how hard it is to play other races. Seriously stfu. I play Protoss 1v1, by choice (EN TARO ADUN TASSADAR!). That being said playing zerg at my level of play is honestly not harder. You are in denial sir. I can pretty much guarantee you that I would play better with zerg (as I feel I have a natural affinity to play them) at least at the level I'm currently at. Does it mean I will switch to get promoted, hell fucking no. I play for fun, some people are better than others at different things, and there are many things that can make you a good sc player. Zerg requires a different skill set (I would argue less skill, more tactical thinking, and positioning). Seriously, you have 1 fucking building to macro with, and can instantly tech switch if you want. Most zerg players don't use their units in every situation that they can or should because they are afraid of needlessly losing them (thats a skill issue). The ability to gain map control and build +10 drones at once, may not come naturally to all players, but its something zerg can and should do. Having some kind of RTS mind I can understand this concept, and can try and use my units to their full potential to meet this need. Seriously I'm soo fucking sick of players whining and saying cheese this or cheese that, when they just want to A move 40 roaches or Marauders into my base for an easy win. Protoss and Terran are not easier to play, get over yourself bud. My face naturally fell into my palm after reading this post. When you're saying "at my level" I'm going to assume you're bronze.
Nope your just biased. I've been ranked Plat-Masters. Regardless its not important. I have no problem with balance or my race. Zerg players need to stop complaining. END OF STORY. Nice 2 line post that says nothing about you other than you are a biased zerg player. Do you have any arguments to bring to this? Maybe you would like to quote some stats from the OP?
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On June 08 2011 05:22 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:18 Binabik wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 Hristiyan wrote:
Its very easy to predict a zerg cheese with terran. You just scan once his natural at the specific time and the drone saturation will tell you the truth. You have a wall-in, which you can make very hard to bust and/or can get marauders precautionary if you have doubts of benelings busts .... or just scan again if you have real doubts or send a reaper.
That race has the least scouting problems. But you now that Scan-Scouting costs you as much as sending 2 Overlords? IF you lose 2 ovies thats 200 minerals and (you start with one too) 2 larvae. IF you scan thats a potential 400 minerals your not gettingIF you build observers your using your robo to not make colossus or immortals There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Negative on that math. There is no specific mineral cost to scans, as they depend on the relative cost of minerals (minerals are more valuable early game), your mineral saturation and number of bases, orbital commands, how far ahead you are in the game, etc. You can't put a flat cost on mules, threads have been closed before for trying.
Also, to correct the Zerg math: The scouting overlord is generally your first one, so I'll give that to you free. If you scout with 2 overlords, that's 1 free ovie and 1 that costs 100 minerals and one larva. In addition, you NEED to replace them because they give supply... so that's 200 more minerals and 2 more larva.
Edit: On June 08 2011 05:56 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:51 Havefa1th wrote:On June 08 2011 05:13 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 08 2011 05:01 Konsume wrote:On June 07 2011 23:25 dani` wrote:
Good job. Every time a Zerg whines again after I defeat him about how "stupidly imbalanced" Protoss is I will point him to this so he can see it's all roughly equal so he can conclude he just played horribly =) or that zerg has an horrible learning curve and that everytime you're fighting someone of your level he always seems to have the easiest way around? it seems to me that some players are confusing "balanced" and "how hard is one race compared to another".... but that's just me Yes and you are confusing how hard zerg is to play with how hard it is to play other races. Seriously stfu. I play Protoss 1v1, by choice (EN TARO ADUN TASSADAR!). That being said playing zerg at my level of play is honestly not harder. You are in denial sir. I can pretty much guarantee you that I would play better with zerg (as I feel I have a natural affinity to play them) at least at the level I'm currently at. Does it mean I will switch to get promoted, hell fucking no. I play for fun, some people are better than others at different things, and there are many things that can make you a good sc player. Zerg requires a different skill set (I would argue less skill, more tactical thinking, and positioning). Seriously, you have 1 fucking building to macro with, and can instantly tech switch if you want. Most zerg players don't use their units in every situation that they can or should because they are afraid of needlessly losing them (thats a skill issue). The ability to gain map control and build +10 drones at once, may not come naturally to all players, but its something zerg can and should do. Having some kind of RTS mind I can understand this concept, and can try and use my units to their full potential to meet this need. Seriously I'm soo fucking sick of players whining and saying cheese this or cheese that, when they just want to A move 40 roaches or Marauders into my base for an easy win. Protoss and Terran are not easier to play, get over yourself bud. My face naturally fell into my palm after reading this post. When you're saying "at my level" I'm going to assume you're bronze. Nope your just biased. I've been ranked Plat-Masters. Regardless its not important. I have no problem with balance or my race. Zerg players need to stop complaining. END OF STORY. Nice 2 line post that says nothing about you other than you are a biased zerg player. Do you have any arguments to bring to this? Maybe you would like to quote some stats from the OP?
There ya go, something I can agree with. You CAN'T, however say that Zerg is as easy to pick up and play as Terran or Protoss because that's simply not true. Each race has different mechanics and playstyles, saying that they're equally easy to play is a fallacy.
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On June 08 2011 05:48 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. The major differences here are: Terran CAN scan. If you CAN do it, it's an option and therefore you can't complain about it not being an option. Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary. -Zerg can sac overlords and HOPE that the opponent isn't paying attention. -Zerg can't get a zergling past a wallin. -Zerg can't make a generalist unit that is going to be good against everything until we get an observer out. -Zerg can't compete with Terrans economy specifically unless they are a base ahead. (this is due to not only the MULE, but also the drone mechanic in the early game) -Zerg has no 4-gate-like build that forces Terran to build a decent amount of units or die without going completely all-in. (if you think transitioning out of a 4-gate is hard, try transitioning out of a bling bust) -Terran specifically has at least 4 different early-game aggressive openings that will outright kill a Zerg if not properly scouted. All of these things add up to making early game incredibly frustrating for Zerg at ALL levels. Not necessarily imba, I think Zerg is doing surprisingly well lately, but really really frustrating to say the least. There is no easy answer to it, unlike the 3-gate robo. You can't just stick to the one build until you feel more confident seeing small identifiers that will allow you to stray away from it. There is no safe build for Zerg. There is only cross your fingers and hope you guess right. Maybe if you play enough, you'll start to pick up on the indicators that you should be looking for. You do have a point but you fail to understand several points. First, terran's scan do not reveal zerg's whole base. It is a risk just like sacing an overlord. Smart zergs these days always try to hide tech using creep spread. Second, going 3 gate robo into expansion puts you behind economically and by far is not 100% safe. It is however, the safest build a protoss can do. A good comparison in the zerg's perspective would be having to play safe by putting down static defense while putting yourself behind economically. Also note that baneling busts can win games outright also. Most baneling busts are unscouted, even at the highest levels. Though terran does seem to be more safe wit the wall in, you can argue that zergs can be equally safe just by making more queens. Though about the variety of things a terran can do, they can be scouted as easily as just seeing whether the terran has a gas or not or even how constantly he is making marines.
You're pointing out the minor issues. Sure a scan COULD miss something but it's going to catch 90% of the base every time. As you get better, and play better opponents who are going to hide tech buildings, you can scan in better locations that will give you enough intel anyway. I could tell a newbie to drop 2 MULEs, then scan the Zergs main. That will work all the way in to Master.
3 gate robo puts you behind economically, but it's going to get you through to the high-levels again. I could tell a newbie to open 3 gate robo every game vs Terran, and that would get him to Master np.
I can't tell a newbie to baneling bust his way to Master league. There are so many minor details that need to be taken into account when you bling bust, so many reasons to not do it. Hell, he would lose 50% of his games to banshees and the other 50% to bunker rushes.
Again, I'm not complaining imba, I'm complaining bad design. Hydras being a non-complete-shit unit would go a long way to making Zerg more playable.
Anyway, the scouting issues that Zerg constantly complain about still persist to this day... I'm not quite sure why Terrans have let up on all-ins vs Z... you pick a random tech and have a 60% chance of winning outright or securing a lead and a 40% chance of only putting yourself slightly behind or breaking even... not bad odds in my opinion.
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On June 08 2011 05:49 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:40 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:28 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:21 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:14 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:09 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 bramapanzer wrote:On June 08 2011 05:02 jHERO wrote:On June 08 2011 04:55 JustPlay wrote:On June 08 2011 04:48 rysecake wrote:
Zergs still complaining they suck? Hate to break it to you but zerg is fine. Zerg still has a disproportionately difficult time in the early game, and even top players can be killed by ridiculous all-ins because there's simply no way to tell. When people are complaining about zerg scouting or zerg getting cheesed it has everything to do with the early game. You can't use 4 overlords to scout. You can use 1-2 depending on the map due to their speed and the terran being able to score free kills if you attempt to send your second or third in to a pre-scouting position. SC2 has a lot of problems for all races, and even if the races were at 50% those problems won't magically go away. lol ridiculous argument, theres only two early game pressure from terran 1, 2 rax + bunker 2. reactored helion on small maps like xel-naga caverns, you can assume a 2 rax, the safe build would be lings first, or good overlord placement to spot bunker and pull ~4 drones to kill scv building bunker reactored helion can be easily stopped on any map, (except for taldarine (sp) ) where there is no ramp to block with queens, but otherwise 2 queens, or a couple of roaches completely shuts it down This just isn't true. At 6 minutes or before terran can have: 2 rax rines into expo 2 rax rines into heavy pressure with scvs 2 rax rines all in with scvs 3 rax rines all in with scvs hellion with 5 rines 2 hellions at 6 minutes, assuming hatch first zerg has: speed, (if not spanishwa build) 2-4 queens maybe a spine Personally, I find that extra queens (3 - 4 at around 6 minutes) will solve all of these rushes, but some people refuse to build extra queens for economic reasons. I think these are the people who complain about the variety of terran early pushes. Each of these pressures/all-ins from terran require a different response if you are only going 2 queens until 2nd expo So you are saying zerg cannot cheese but terran can? Shows pure ignorance. I'm not saying that at all.... Did you not read my post? I even said I think the argument from a zerg point of view is bunk.... Quit trolling Zerg can cheese even if they go hatch first. You listed out options that assumes the zerg does not cheese. You really don't read well do you... This entire quote was about SCOUTING. Are you seriously implying that zergs should always cheese to be safe from 2rax expo? A baneling bust hatch first hits at around 6:30, that is after the timeframe i mentioned in my post. Anyways, the whole point of this quote thread, before you side-tracked it, was the fact that Terrans have MANY options before 6 minutes, not just "reactored hellion or 2 rax bunker" Your response lists out possible tactics that terran can do before 6 minutes. Then you list out what the zerg can have without taking in consideration of what a terran have. Isn't that replying to him with a biased thought that zergs can only play a macro game while terran can do anything he wants? In addition, you pointed out a random timing on a baneling bust which is not true at all depending on how economic the baneling bust is. Roach openings are also a possibility in which you forgot to mention and they are safe without being all-in. Scouting? I read the whole chain of posts and clearly you responded to the previous poster saying that a terran can do more than just reactored hellions and 2 rax bunker rushes, while being wrong on what the zerg can do. Random time for baneling bust? It's the fastest bust after speed and hatch first... Ok, let me list the AGGRESSIVE things zerg can do before 6 minutes, for fairness: early pool lings - really can only do 6 pool to get in before wall off, can be denied by good scv micro and leaves zerg around 10 workers behind and on the same # of bases as terran, essentially an all in 1 base roach/speedling - Hits around 6:50-730, all of terran's pressure will get there before roaches pop and will be able to scout warren and return to build defenses 1 base baneling bust - Hits around 6:30, if this does not kill workers, zerg will be again be behind about 5-10 workers and on even expansion. So as you can see, none of the zerg aggression hits before 6 minutes except the 6 pool, all can easily be scouted by lack of expo (or lack of drones at expo) during terran early game pressure. I think you all are forgetting that one of the most important reasons terran pressure is not just to get the zerg to make more units, its also to scout....
Now that you listed out what the zerg can do BEFORE 6 minutes, sure you can say they cannot do damage (which isn't true always), but lets extend that time to 8 minutes. All of a sudden the amount of options a zerg can have becomes much more broad. Also note that you limited the options for zerg into going hatch first. If you scout a terran base, you can also limit what the terran can do by seeing whether he has a gas or not (you can also see if he went gas before rax by seeing the amount mined or whether an orbital goes down before the factory) and often, whether he is getting 2 barracks or not. Yes, he can makarax, but that is definitely scoutable.
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On June 08 2011 05:54 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:52 ShooTouts wrote:
Zerg CLEARLY have done very well against Terrans lately.
But they clearly need more early game scouting options against T . But don't blame the Terran race ... blame Zerg for not having enough scouting options. Blizzard please make this happen. Having perfect scouting would mean Zerg could just drone whore to hell against T/P without any risk. You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.
exacly, zergs are ridoculous if they think they deserve perfect scounting information considering other races have to guess too (atleast to the same extent as zergs) and they cant get huge advantage from retarded mass droning early in game
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If myself and IdrA played 100 games and I played Terran, and I used builds ranging from 2 rax all in to 2 port banshee, and assuming IdrA doesn't over prepare for cheese every game, I would probably win 10 games, maybe more.
Considering my actual skill level, this is way too high a win rate and I would not deserve such a win rate. Coin flips can lead to 50% win rates, but that does not show balance, it shows that we have a rock-paper-scissors match up.
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On June 07 2011 23:24 aurum510 wrote:
How can IdrA cry about ZvP... It's the most imbalanced matchup and it's in favor of Zerg...
Imbalanced statistics do not necessarily imply gameplay imbalance... that is such a hugely wrong (and common) misconception that people have. Zerg is winning right now but that doesn't mean Zerg is OP, I mean look how many times that graph fluctuates between Zerg and Protoss being the "imbalanced" race.
The change can be due to many things, maps, player skill, current trends, etc. For example, when builds like 4gate, forge FE void ray/colossus, etc. came to prominence, I'm sure Protoss performed statistically better then Zerg during those periods, but on the other hand, anti 3gate roach ling all ins are forcing Protoss player's to change their play a bit now and Zerg is taking a lead statistically.
Basically, I wouldn't be so quick to call a race imbalanced simply because of some statistics. You need to consider the other factors influencing the statistics apart from the races themselves.
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On June 08 2011 06:02 Jermstuddog wrote:
You're pointing out the minor issues. Sure a scan COULD miss something but it's going to catch 90% of the base every time. As you get better, and play better opponents who are going to hide tech buildings, you can scan in better locations that will give you enough intel anyway. I could tell a newbie to drop 2 MULEs, then scan the Zergs main. That will work all the way in to Master.
3 gate robo puts you behind economically, but it's going to get you through to the high-levels again. I could tell a newbie to open 3 gate robo every game vs Terran, and that would get him to Master np.
I can't tell a newbie to baneling bust his way to Master league. There are so many minor details that need to be taken into account when you bling bust, so many reasons to not do it. Hell, he would lose 50% of his games to banshees and the other 50% to bunker rushes.
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A newbie who plays safe will still lose simply because he is a newbie, and a good player who plays greedy will still get to masters because he is good.
And considering there's a thread somewhere on TL about a guy who 6-pooled his way to masters league as an experiment, you are quite wrong. A newbie might actually be able to pull this one off even.
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On June 08 2011 06:03 crabz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:54 Mercury- wrote:On June 08 2011 05:52 ShooTouts wrote:
Zerg CLEARLY have done very well against Terrans lately.
But they clearly need more early game scouting options against T . But don't blame the Terran race ... blame Zerg for not having enough scouting options. Blizzard please make this happen. Having perfect scouting would mean Zerg could just drone whore to hell against T/P without any risk. You guys can't have your cake and eat it too. exacly, zergs are ridoculous if they think they deserve perfect scounting information considering other races have to guess too (atleast to the same extent as zergs) and they cant get huge advantage from retarded mass droning early in game
Have you ever considered that Zerg needs as many drones as possible to stay even with Terran or Protoss? Terran and Protoss have chronoboost and Mules to benefit their economy without sacrificing worker production, meanwhile Zerg has to make enough drones and bases to stay even with those two races economically while making sure the same larva aren't better used as defending units. Meanwhile we do have to replace drones used as tech structures.
While, as a Zerg player, do agree that I love my D key, I'm just saying that early game especially, it's a delicate balancing act between making sure your economy is decent late game while staying alive.
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On June 08 2011 06:02 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:48 WindCalibur wrote:On June 08 2011 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 08 2011 05:07 WindCalibur wrote:
Terran cannot afford to scan too early because it delays their game. Economic baneling busts are almost always unscouted and even at the top levels, pros get blind turrets. Roach busts are also impossible to scout when the lings are on the field. If the terran is investing in banshees or tech, it is most likely possible to sac an ovie to see what is going on since tech = less marines. Also, going tech like banshees makes terran play a guessing game as they are weak to roach all ins or baneling busts.
And after all the trouble that other races have, like protoss having to sometimes use sentry energy and hallucinate to scout, which of course relays tech, the zergs still complains about their inability to scout.
Sometimes I really wonder how people can be so ignorant. The major differences here are: Terran CAN scan. If you CAN do it, it's an option and therefore you can't complain about it not being an option. Protoss CAN go 3-gate robo. That opening is generally safe vs everything, therefore scouting is unnecessary. -Zerg can sac overlords and HOPE that the opponent isn't paying attention. -Zerg can't get a zergling past a wallin. -Zerg can't make a generalist unit that is going to be good against everything until we get an observer out. -Zerg can't compete with Terrans economy specifically unless they are a base ahead. (this is due to not only the MULE, but also the drone mechanic in the early game) -Zerg has no 4-gate-like build that forces Terran to build a decent amount of units or die without going completely all-in. (if you think transitioning out of a 4-gate is hard, try transitioning out of a bling bust) -Terran specifically has at least 4 different early-game aggressive openings that will outright kill a Zerg if not properly scouted. All of these things add up to making early game incredibly frustrating for Zerg at ALL levels. Not necessarily imba, I think Zerg is doing surprisingly well lately, but really really frustrating to say the least. There is no easy answer to it, unlike the 3-gate robo. You can't just stick to the one build until you feel more confident seeing small identifiers that will allow you to stray away from it. There is no safe build for Zerg. There is only cross your fingers and hope you guess right. Maybe if you play enough, you'll start to pick up on the indicators that you should be looking for. You do have a point but you fail to understand several points. First, terran's scan do not reveal zerg's whole base. It is a risk just like sacing an overlord. Smart zergs these days always try to hide tech using creep spread. Second, going 3 gate robo into expansion puts you behind economically and by far is not 100% safe. It is however, the safest build a protoss can do. A good comparison in the zerg's perspective would be having to play safe by putting down static defense while putting yourself behind economically. Also note that baneling busts can win games outright also. Most baneling busts are unscouted, even at the highest levels. Though terran does seem to be more safe wit the wall in, you can argue that zergs can be equally safe just by making more queens. Though about the variety of things a terran can do, they can be scouted as easily as just seeing whether the terran has a gas or not or even how constantly he is making marines. You're pointing out the minor issues. Sure a scan COULD miss something but it's going to catch 90% of the base every time. As you get better, and play better opponents who are going to hide tech buildings, you can scan in better locations that will give you enough intel anyway. I could tell a newbie to drop 2 MULEs, then scan the Zergs main. That will work all the way in to Master. 3 gate robo puts you behind economically, but it's going to get you through to the high-levels again. I could tell a newbie to open 3 gate robo every game vs Terran, and that would get him to Master np. I can't tell a newbie to baneling bust his way to Master league. There are so many minor details that need to be taken into account when you bling bust, so many reasons to not do it. Hell, he would lose 50% of his games to banshees and the other 50% to bunker rushes. Again, I'm not complaining imba, I'm complaining bad design. Hydras being a non-complete-shit unit would go a long way to making Zerg more playable. Anyway, the scouting issues that Zerg constantly complain about still persist to this day... I'm not quite sure why Terrans have let up on all-ins vs Z... you pick a random tech and have a 60% chance of winning outright or securing a lead and a 40% chance of only putting yourself slightly behind or breaking even... not bad odds in my opinion.
Shouldn't you discuss this at the top top levels? Rarely do you see protoss 3 gate robo these days( though i see Tyler do it time to time).
Also, baneling busts can get you into master league. So can strategies like voidray rushes and such. You can argue that voidray all-ins have a 60% of winning a game and even if you don't, can only put you behind.
The reason why Terrans don't all in as often these days are because its a coinflip, where the odds of winning slowly diminishes depending on your opponent's skill rather than your own. Terrans have variety, but it does not mean that a zerg is in a huge disadvantage because of so. Experience and skill can eliminate this variety and put you at even ground.
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On June 08 2011 06:05 Micket wrote:
If myself and IdrA played 100 games and I played Terran, and I used builds ranging from 2 rax all in to 2 port banshee, and assuming IdrA doesn't over prepare for cheese every game, I would probably win 10 games, maybe more.
Considering my actual skill level, this is way too high a win rate and I would not deserve such a win rate. Coin flips can lead to 50% win rates, but that does not show balance, it shows that we have a rock-paper-scissors match up.
You over estimate yourself you would lose every single game
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Really interesting graph. Looks like januari was a dark month for being a zerg, but they're doing really well lately. Even better than protoss.
Overall it seems races are decently balanced. Besides (can't believe i'm saying this) protoss is a bit week apparently.
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EPT
