EPTRace Win Rates Update: May - Page 21
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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mrando
19 Posts
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mavsfan0041
United States306 Posts
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Dag0N
Denmark25 Posts
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
ZvP is most off atm in the favor of zerg but I think this issue will correct itself. P had the most changes in the last patch and thus they probably need longer to adjust themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if P got to being favored again in a month or 2 without a patch change at all simply because P learn to adapt better to the new metagame. I want to echo mavsfan0041 for the suggestion of adding the patch timings into the graph though. | ||
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On June 11 2011 00:16 Blacklizard wrote: I love posting on TL. God forbid somebody consider design options in a thread about how winrates seem off. Fuck me. god forbid anyone who actually understands data analysis actually tells you to shut up | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
My opinion isn't that Protoss is under powered, but that the matchup swings back and forth quite a bit. Hence the first paragraph of my post, and I quote "Wild how they swing back and forth". I guess the geniuses that respond to me are statistics experts but can't comprehend written English. This is yet another reason why people can't post on balance. Why do I try? Hell, this guy sums it up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231113¤tpage=21 Allow me, with my limited Zerg expertise, to try: Sometimes it seems Zerg struggles with nexus cancel 4 gate. Or maybe WhiteRa's immortal pushes. I haven't seen a Zerg die to one base Protoss air pressure in a long time, though Blizzard buffed the spore recently b/c of it. I imagine Zerg don't like the trouble taking a 3rd when a quick voidray is there to deny it, but I'm not sure it's an actual problem merely part of the matchup. I don't believe the "death ball" is a problem anymore... If those are true, attacking isn't Zerg's problem pvz, so WHAT IF: 1. Spines built faster? Would allow reactionary defense against an incoming attack. But if it were much faster than it is now, would it even be possible to punish a greedy zerg? The ability to move spines is important here. 2. What if spines were 25 minerals cheaper? Would probably be fine. Might allow for a quicker macro hatch. Only major problem I'd worry about from a P point of view is about spine turtling with mutas. Maybe also Spanishiwa's build would be a little harder to deal with. ? 3. What if a nexus cancel cost more money? Just for a nexus. This is one of those extreme options since it would hurt protoss who was trying for an expand and got denied by mass ling or a hidden bio push. So if it was truly found to be a serious problem for Zerg, maybe the longer a nexus goes past 75% done the more it would cost to cancel it. 4. You knew it was coming. What if lurkers came back?! Zerg defense. Oh how I miss lurkers. | ||
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AlphaWing
Taiwan36 Posts
If it does, then the win rate will be pulled colse to 50% And this means that the race that has a larger population, will be pulled even closer to 50% For example, if I am analyzing 100 games, and 90 of them are PvP, with only 5 PvTs, and 5 PvZs, Even if P loses all the 10 games to Z and T, the win rate for P will still be near at 50%, which in this case will be 47.4% | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 12 2011 01:45 AlphaWing wrote: Does the big chart on top includes PvP TvT and ZvZ ? If it does, then the win rate will be pulled colse to 50% And this means that the race that has a larger population, will be pulled even closer to 50% For example, if I am analyzing 100 games, and 90 of them are PvP, with only 5 PvTs, and 5 PvZs, Even if P loses all the 10 games to Z and T, the win rate for P will still be near at 50%, which in this case will be 47.4% Look at the label the graph (top left) | ||
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
On June 12 2011 01:42 Blacklizard wrote: 4. You knew it was coming. What if lurkers came back?! Zerg defense. Oh how I miss lurkers. Lurkers were in Hive tech to begin with (in SC2). Moving them down to Lair tech might require switching around tech for Zerg. Not only that, it takes quite some time for Lurkers to get out. If you see the Nexus cancel aggression, you'll be morphing in your Lair. From there, you'll be getting out your Hydralisk Den (unless the tech was switched to Hatchery tech and Roaches were moved to Lair or some other place), and then you'll be morphing in your Hydralisks. From there, you need to change it into a Lurker Den to allow Lurkers. And from there, you have to wait until Hydralisks morph into Lurkers. By which point you're probably dead anyway. Nor would you actually be devoting any larva to make Hydras or Hydras into Lurkers because you have to deal with the aggression that the Protoss is putting on you. Just saying Lurkers won't work in that situation. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Sockpuppet
119 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On June 12 2011 01:42 Blacklizard wrote: Instead of TL being a place where balance is a dirty word and no discussion is good discussion, I'd like to see some thoughtful fucking posts. Instead of somebody using an account named turdburgler to troll, what I'd love to see is some design change ideas from the Zerg perspective. My opinion isn't that Protoss is under powered, but that the matchup swings back and forth quite a bit. Hence the first paragraph of my post, and I quote "Wild how they swing back and forth". I guess the geniuses that respond to me are statistics experts but can't comprehend written English. This is yet another reason why people can't post on balance. Why do I try? Hell, this guy sums it up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231113¤tpage=21 Allow me, with my limited Zerg expertise, to try: Sometimes it seems Zerg struggles with nexus cancel 4 gate. Or maybe WhiteRa's immortal pushes. I haven't seen a Zerg die to one base Protoss air pressure in a long time, though Blizzard buffed the spore recently b/c of it. I imagine Zerg don't like the trouble taking a 3rd when a quick voidray is there to deny it, but I'm not sure it's an actual problem merely part of the matchup. I don't believe the "death ball" is a problem anymore... If those are true, attacking isn't Zerg's problem pvz, so WHAT IF: 1. Spines built faster? Would allow reactionary defense against an incoming attack. But if it were much faster than it is now, would it even be possible to punish a greedy zerg? The ability to move spines is important here. 2. What if spines were 25 minerals cheaper? Would probably be fine. Might allow for a quicker macro hatch. Only major problem I'd worry about from a P point of view is about spine turtling with mutas. Maybe also Spanishiwa's build would be a little harder to deal with. ? 3. What if a nexus cancel cost more money? Just for a nexus. This is one of those extreme options since it would hurt protoss who was trying for an expand and got denied by mass ling or a hidden bio push. So if it was truly found to be a serious problem for Zerg, maybe the longer a nexus goes past 75% done the more it would cost to cancel it. 4. You knew it was coming. What if lurkers came back?! Zerg defense. Oh how I miss lurkers. What the fuck does balance discussion here do? Go do this on the Battle.net forums. We're here for the game and competitive play, not for fucking shitting on top players and trivializing their success by talking about how the game made them win and how their race is too strong, particularly when there's no reason to think that there is an issue. Defending isn't Zerg's problem in PvZ so WHAT IF "WE MAKE A SHOW ABOUT NOTHING and call it Seinfeld". Improving static defense may be something that Blizzard looks to tweak across the board, same goes for scouting, but right now, these discussions are just people spewing random shit that doesn't mean anything. Do this all you want on the Blizzard forums, what's the reason for doing it here other than getting it off your chest? | ||
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Coutcha
Canada519 Posts
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Crappy
France224 Posts
On June 12 2011 02:51 Coutcha wrote: Its almost Balanced better destroy that with HotS soon :DDD Do you forgot what "Soon"™ mean ? | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
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