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United States7481 Posts
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do.
http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
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Glad to see a response from GOMtv. I think this was necessary. GOM has been getting a lot of slack recently. Although I think it's probably a good idea for many foreign players to stay in NA/EU right now that doesnt mean that GSL is a bad tournament.
I have some suggestions for solutions/improvements for GOMtv:
- mini off-season tournaments that are much shorter with smaller prize pools. Run inbetween the code S/Code A/ Tournaments. These tournaments would be designed to get foreigners to come over.
- Foreigner showmatches. Designed to introduce Koreans to more foreign SC players.
- More Invitationals like the world championships.
- an international tournament held outside of Korea but broadcasted in Korea and elsewhere.
These are just brainstormed ideas. There are concerns/difficulties with each. But I think all of the ideas are at the very least feasible
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Thank You for the great post.
SC2 and e-sports in general are evovling at an incredible pace right now, more that I am guessing most people thought was possible. I hope everyday at the major tournaments can keep up and keep imporving (lookinsg at you IPL, NASL, GSL, MLG, TSL, Dreamhack, etc.) and I am looking for bigger and better inter-national tournaments in the future.
Side note, I also think Blizzard needs to step up as well to provide these tournies with a lag free environment, even if it is a tourny only LAN, or dedicated connections for rent. Come up with somthing.
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You are a visionary and an amazing person!!! Thanks so much for all you've done for e-Sports! The new announcements make me sooo excited.
Just a few notes on the stuff about foreigners declining the opportunity to come to Korea, however.
1) I think part of the misunderstanding is due to a culture barrier. In his post, Mr. Chae states that if you are good, you should be willing to put everything on the line, deal with language barriers, etc., to compete. In the US, at least, e-Sports are thought of very differently than they are in Korea. I'm not sure how to articulate the difference however. In America, being a progamer isn't something that is generally aspired to. It is not considered the world's best job by that many people. Therefore, progaming is not some amazing pinnacle of human existence that people won't give up simply because it is an enviable position. Unlike commonly wished-for opportunities in the US (stock broker, investment banker, other rich-people jobs, baseball player), the job is not the end goal. If a progamer isn't enjoying themselves, then they may very well decide to give up gaming. With this in mind, it may seem a little bit more understandable why a progamer might decline a trip to Korea. The desire to enjoy being a progamer outweighs the appeal of being a GSL Champion.
2) This one is very simple. Mr. Chae said something along the lines of, "Imagine if MC was invited to a LAN event in the US. He would give everything up to go and win". But that's the thing. MC would have a very good chance of winning. Not many foreigner players offered invites would honestly say they thought they had a good chance of winning a Korean tournament. Travelling to Korea to lose is probably less appealing to some of the less-involved gamer than travelling to the US to win.
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I still think that the prize pool and time commitment differences between MLG and the GSL Code A are far too large for the exchange to be considered equal, I can see that if the situation was reversed the Korean pros wouldn't want to come to the US and compete in a very difficult tournament for very little money/fame whilst not being able to compete in any other tournaments (you still could, but it would be much more difficult and you'd be at a disadvantage).
Basically they get to come to MLG and play a few games over a few days and have a very good chance at winning 5k, whereas the players that chose to participate in the GSL have to move to Korea for a month, compete in a massive tournament with tons of players, play waay more games against stronger opponents just for a shot at a smaller prize pool. To me, the "fame" factor doesn't seem to be anywhere near the cost of not being able to compete in any of the NA/EU lan/online events
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Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US?
I am 100% confident that they would go.
I do not think that they would go to (if we are still using this backwards world) the US because when they get there they would be playing essentially a qualifier for the GSL, for $1500(it's about that right?) and when they go they cannot play any other of the larger and more frequent tournaments that exist in Korea because of the latency (and it's part of the rules?) and I don't think that is worth forsaking for them.
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There is a simple solution to this, talk to the foreign players about why they decided not to go to the supertournament and how GSL can improve in order to make it more attractive to go to Korea. Foreign tournaments should obviously do this with Korean players aswell but it seems like they are managing to get many Koreans to come to their events right now.
All we fans can do is speculate, I think everyone wants to see Koreans and foreigners playing against eachother more and everyone likes GSL.
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United States33654 Posts
On May 28 2011 02:29 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all. i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
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man you are one of the best things ever happend to starcraft and i hope soon more foreign play in GSL
THANK YOU !
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GOM is surprisingly responsive to the community. I'm impressed by their willingness to change.
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This is a very good response, and I really like the solutions. If/when they go into effect, I'll certainly become at least a little bit more interested in watching the GSL.
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On May 28 2011 02:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 02:29 Antoine wrote:On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all. i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
Premier Tournaments (Jan-Jun Code A to Dreamhack Summer)
(Wiki2)Premier Tournaments
Korean individual events: ~$685,000
NA/EU individual events: ~$292,000
(Note, you can include IGN PL S2 $50,000 for July as well since it is listed there but then GSL July prize pool also needs to be included which will further increase the difference)
Major Tournaments
(Wiki2)Major Tournaments
World ~ $85,000 (euros/pounds roughly converted to dollars)
Adding both up
Korea : ~$685,000
World : ~$377,000
Note: You will need ~308 $1000 weekly tourneys or ~1540 $200 weekly tournaments to make up the balance. I doubt there have been that many scale tournaments to make up the difference.
Conclusion: Even though the prize-pools are much more top heavy in Korea, the total prize pool in Korea is in fact higher than the rest of the world combined (possibly even after talking the countless smaller tournaments into account).
For team tournaments as well(2011):
(Wiki2)Team Tournaments
Korea : ~$51,000
Rest of World: ~$32,000
Some food for thought
If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
According to Prize Money Rank, that will put you in the ~Top 60 prize ranking for this year. Note, a lot of the people above you will still be Koreans. It seems people like to put too much emphasis on small scale tournaments in EU/NA but the amount of competition in these too also do not allow you to make as much as you could by just staying in Top32 Code S and not progressing any time beyond it."
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United States7481 Posts
On May 28 2011 02:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 02:29 Antoine wrote:On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all. i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
it's ridiculous for you to imply that i haven't been paying attention to that. look at the weighted ratings on the djgamblore page. by any measurement, there is more money to be made for the very top players in korea. more money has been given out there in the last 1 month, last 3 months, all of 2011, or the entirety of sc2, and that's a fact.
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Great reach out to the community. GOM keeps improving and esports with it!
As far as GSTL goes. I think it's sooooo vital for the growth of the scene that focus in being shifted towards the team league. Totally independent of any of these duscissions with foreigner programs etc I think the GSTL itself will elevate prestige and level of play hugely during these few months. Really looking forward to it!
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Good post and insight, thank you for taking the time to write it! I hope to meet you in Columbus and hear more!
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Terrific response.
It's a complicated situation, but it seems as though all possible solutions are being taken into consideration. I appreciate the time that was taken to show Gom's position.
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This response is why Korea has a much bigger pro-gaming esports scene, unlike teamliquids Youtube where they interview Huk who just immaturely swears his ass off.
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On May 28 2011 02:51 ilmman wrote:
This response is why Korea has a much bigger pro-gaming esports scene, unlike teamliquids Youtube where they interview Huk who just immaturely swears his ass off.
The comparison is stupid in of itself. The OP is in management and casting, if you want to compare then compare him to someone like MLG Sundance not Huk :/
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awesome. thank you for posting this parapa. dont be upset about the things you cant solve! you're doing great as is. and the whole "mercanary" idea is absolutely awesome imo. and the MLG GSL exchange is also a great step toward player exchange. what you do is not only great for korea, and the few lucky foreigners that get to be apart of the GSL; but great for the community, and esports as a whole.
you're doing a great job. keep it up and thank you!
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this may be a very very stupid question here because i'm kinda retarded when it comes to economics and businesses but ...
seeing as there's an exchange program between mlg(na) and gsl (korea) to put both communities more together ... why can't you make 1 really big tournament with a large us/kr qualifier respectively and just do a "global" star league that switches venues between kr/us every few months?
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EPT
