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On May 24 2011 22:43 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote:
GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers. The good thing is that MLG winners are (up to now) all more or less code S worthy if you look the history. (idra, jinro, nani, kiwi, huk) So we can expect that the foreigners that will win their code S spot throught MLG won't be ridiculous  Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. I remember at least a post on TL (perhaps in this very thread) from Morrow (don't quote me on this). I guess they talked about it in sotg too, but I don't clearly remember. The thing I don't understand about this is, all these guys are around 20 year olds. I remember when I was 20, I dreamed to travel and I can't even imagine me refusing a 1 month all expanses paid trip to Korea at this time. And it's certainly not bunk beds that would have stopped me :D
Totally agree im 23 and regardless of the seed in the GSL getting an all expenses paid trip to a foreign country (especially one as interesting as south korea) seems like a huge opportunity and it would be a shame to see foreigners rejecting such a great opportunity. Also there isnt NEARLY as many people staying in the gom house as the korean team houses and its about the same size as most of them so regardless of weather you have to share a room or not your going to have alot more personal space then most koreans living in a team house. Have you seen the slayers house even boxer sleeps in a bunk bed, he obviously doesnt have too he could live with his girlfriend or rent his own place (god knows he has enough money) but he wants to live and thrive in that environment. I can just imagine him and MMA sleeping beside each other discussing strategies before they fall asleep(their beds are right beside each other)  probably the reason why MMA is soo good hahaha.
Also with the new format you finish up the round of 16 and the round of 32 in 4 or 5 days depending on your group so if you dont like it there and you dont get through your groups you can leave less than a week after you got there and go back to do your thing in the foreign scene i mean its all expenses paid so i dont see any disadvantage to trying your luck in Code for 4-5 days. To be honest though i would want to stay for at least a week more if i got knocked out early just to see the sights, you will still beable to play in your online tournaments as well, look at the NASL standing 4 koreans and sen in the top 10, it obviously hasnt hindered their ability to win too much. If you make it through to the up and down matches (you will know within 4-5 days after the gsl starts wich is nice loving the new format) then you have ample time to prepare for the up and down matches and you stay in korea for another 2 weeks not a huge deal , 3 weeks in a foreign country isnt really a huge commitment at all i go on a 2 month vacation to europe almost every year and it doesnt feel like a huge commitment and its not all expenses paid and i dont have the luxury of having a place to live set up for me already. Obviously for some pro gamers it might be hard if they have prior arrangements for things in their countries, but in terms of online tournaments you can still participate in most of them if you want to and you have an awesome opportunity to compete in the GSL with the best players in the world.
I think it would be foolish for players to not take advantage of the MLG exchange program, at least in sweden judging fromm the amount of pro's that participated in the RAKAKA road to korea tournament it seems there are many players who would like a shot at code A. So hopefully our north american boys feel the same way, id love to see Kiwi , Naniwa Seth etc get a shot at code a.
Also i think jinro should be going to columbus i really hope he wins to regain his rightful spot in code S, would be a huge burden off of his back!
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Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
As a viewer I'm not sure I'd like Code A being an online tournament. I'd rather there were no foreigners in Code A than it be an online tournament.
But maybe it could be condensed down, so that Code A is over and done with in like, a week. So you fly out for a week and get it done.
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On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
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On May 25 2011 23:30 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do.
On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote:
Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so.
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On May 26 2011 06:29 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 23:30 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont. Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do. Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote:
Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so.
=( its pretty sad all the people that are "learning something" because alot of the information is wrong and people just dont know better they will just generally trust what xeris says, it sucks and your right it wont change until we get a mod edit, they put it in the spotlight they should edit it.
I find the spotlight description pretty hilarious "an illuminating post from someone in the loop" for someone in the loop he is quite out of the loop =/
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On May 26 2011 08:11 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 06:29 Sein wrote:On May 25 2011 23:30 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont. Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do. On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote:
Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so. =( its pretty sad all the people that are "learning something" because alot of the information is wrong and people just dont know better they will just generally trust what xeris says, it sucks and your right it wont change until we get a mod edit, they put it in the spotlight they should edit it. I find the spotlight description pretty hilarious "an illuminating post from someone in the loop" for someone in the loop he is quite out of the loop =/
I posted that with the full knowledge that Xeris didn't know about the Code S spot, so is there something else that I've missed?
Regardless of him not knowing, it was a great insight into why pre MLG announcement teams weren't doing it. Into why they don't view Code A in general as worth it. Into the issue of not giving enough prior warning about the tournament. On top of this, what about players not going to MLG or not winning MLGs, there's only one Code S spot per MLG.
Because he didn't know about the Code S spot does not mean all his reasons prior to it are suddenly changed. It does not mean anything changes, except that now if you win MLG you get a code S spot. It affects like one section of a long post.
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Well, I guess Xeris main point is that moving to Korea just for Code A isn't wise financially and that he thinks it's too hard for foreign players to advance through Code A, the up-and-down matches into Code S.
Regarding the practise, why can't the players in the team house organize themselves (or somebody else abroad can do that for them, you don't need to be in the house to do that) and make a practise schedule like a korean team house?
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On May 25 2011 23:30 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Those KIDS are young living without their parents (in many cases) doing a damn good job in the GSL. The ADULTS that are playing for EU/NA should not only be able to adapt, but should easily fit in even if you cannot speak the language you CAN communicate. Sure they're used to smaller living conditions, but the rooms aren't designed for "little people" and it also isn't like we're sending in the Giant from Jack and the Bean Stalk to live in Korea. Though I have heard things about Idra not necessarily getting the best practice, but he is also actually BM and was also actually a weaker player, so I could see why that would wind up the case.
In any case though this thread and the other one are both getting too much playtime. If you don't like the deal don't fucking go. If you think it is a good idea (perhaps naniwa if he wins this MLG which will make him code s) then get there when you can. There is no actual problem with Korea. There may be a problem with those who write about problems in Korea. (see the funny?)
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It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
So I asked this in the other thread too, but since this thread seems more involved, I'll ask it here.
- How exactly do you expect GOM to provide "good practice partners" to these foreigners?
- What good practice partners did teams like Slayers and MVP have when they first started?
- Why are you saying the foreigners would have to practice on the Korean ladder themselves? Are they incapable of practicing with each other? or are you implying the foreigners aren't good enough of practice partners for each other?
- What is so hard about scheduling the practice hours? Is it really a problem of not having a the schedule or is it more of that foreigners are unwilling to follow and accept harsh training schedules like the Koreans?
The bottom line is, you can "potentially" earn more in Korea than anywhere else. I think someone else pointed out in the other thread, that just from staying in Code S (and get knocked out in the ro32 every month), you would earn more money than getting 4th place and below at MLG.
The way I see it is, you're pretty much just embarrassing yourself, and the foreigner community, to try and come up with every little excuse you can think of in hopes that GOM will accommodate you more than they already are, when in reality they're already doing (and did) way more than enough.
The harsh truth, and most of these team managers/sponsors know, is that most foreigners won't make it far into the GSL; and THIS is the main reason why you guys aren't sending your players over. I'm pretty sure no foreign teams would hesitate to send their players even if just half the players they send can make it into top 4-8 in Code S consistently.
There is no "Game" gene in the DNA. The difference is the skill level between the foreigners and the Korean is in their culture, mindset, attitude, and structures. The foreigners just have to give up their individualist mindset, lay off the blames, stop the complaining attitude, and work hard and grow together as a group like every other Korean teams out there. This is not a "Korea problem", this is more of a "Foreigner Problem"
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On May 27 2011 01:21 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive. So I asked this in the other thread too, but since this thread seems more involved, I'll ask it here. - How exactly do you expect GOM to provide "good practice partners" to these foreigners? - What good practice partners did teams like Slayers and MVP have when they first started? - Why are you saying the foreigners would have to practice on the Korean ladder themselves? Are they incapable of practicing with each other? or are you implying the foreigners aren't good enough of practice partners for each other? - What is so hard about scheduling the practice hours? Is it really a problem of not having a the schedule or is it more of that foreigners are unwilling to follow and accept harsh training schedules like the Koreans? The bottom line is, you can "potentially" earn more in Korea than anywhere else. I think someone else pointed out in the other thread, that just from staying in Code S (and get knocked out in the ro32 every month), you would earn more money than getting 4th place and below at MLG. The way I see it is, you're pretty much just embarrassing yourself, and the foreigner community, to try and come up with every little excuse you can think of in hopes that GOM will accommodate you more than they already are, when in reality they're already doing (and did) way more than enough. The harsh truth, and most of these team managers/sponsors know, is that most foreigners won't make it far into the GSL; and THIS is the main reason why you guys aren't sending your players over. I'm pretty sure no foreign teams would hesitate to send their players even if just half the players they send can make it into top 4-8 in Code S consistently. There is no "Game" gene in the DNA. The difference is the skill level between the foreigners and the Korean is in their culture, mindset, attitude, and structures. The foreigners just have to give up their individualist mindset, lay off the blames, stop the complaining attitude, and work hard and grow together as a group like every other Korean teams out there. This is not a "Korea problem", this is more of a "Foreigner Problem"
That was me who pointed that out , but yea i totally agree, with the new MLG exchange program there will be at least 4-5 foreigners in the Gom house + torch, There is no reason why foreingers cant take some initiative to maybe invite huk and jinro over and get them to bring some of the OGS guys, or why the cant ask torch if its possible that one of them tag along to the ST house each day, or set something like that up, Im not saying all these things are for sure possible but certainly none of them are impossible.
Gisado lives in the Gom house i beleive as well, why cant you ask him if its possible to set up some kind of practice event once or twice a week where koreans can come and practice with the foreigners in the house, there is obviously things you can do to make your practice environment ideal. I dont really see what the issue is here beyond xeris and fams just complaining about basically the fact that they assume a foreigner will be lazy and do nothing to better their practice environment while they are in korea. Koreans would probably love a chance to practice with foreigners here and there, i dont see why something couldnt be set up, and im sure gom would be happy to try and accomodate them they seem to be doing everything that is in their control to help foreigners get to korea these days.
What did korea do to you Fnatic?
Edit: also with the gom house, whats stopping a bunch of foreigners from going over there and staying in the gom house and starting their own team (even if its just for korea they can still be fromm different teams) get enough players there to have a decent practice environment and work towards getting enough players in gsl to participate in the teamleague even. Something like this could work if it was organized and the players teams where down for it. Im not saying this is realistic for everyone , but with the MLG exchange program now in place, the players who won could bring a teammate or 2 and try and start their own real foreigner house with enough players to actually field a team.
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Nice post. I like the Code A online qualifier idea.
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Pro players need to take naniwa as a prime example on how to be a true pro player. Naniwa doesn't care, he just wants to play the best and the best is in korea then he going there. He said in sotg that win or lose mlg he will definetly be planning to go to Korea because he believes the best are there.
Most of the foreigners are already tied with something and their ambitions lie in the west and not in the mindset of being the best player the world can possibly see. This kind of thinking will always make korea #1 because no one is sizing up to the task of challenging the best players in the world for their own personal reasons.
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On May 27 2011 07:43 Raid wrote:
Pro players need to take naniwa as a prime example on how to be a true pro player. Naniwa doesn't care, he just wants to play the best and the best is in korea then he going there. He said in sotg that win or lose mlg he will definetly be planning to go to Korea because he believes the best are there.
Most of the foreigners are already tied with something and their ambitions lie in the west and not in the mindset of being the best player the world can possibly see. This kind of thinking will always make korea #1 because no one is sizing up to the task of challenging the best players in the world for their own personal reasons.
Unfortunately pro-gamers have to eat. If their team says no they won't pay for them to go out to Korea, they just can't afford to go. I think quite a lot comes down to teams and not players quite often.
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Some very valid points here, thanks for the writeup, Xeris! Your two suggestions are very apropos to the situation foreigner progamers find themselves in. From invitations to advance notice, those suggestions would go a long way towards making the world tournament that GSL hosts contain more people from the world outside Korea.
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I think Code A is the biggest problem. A month long for a tiny prize pool. I really wish they would about triple that prize pool. Make being a Code A player worth it, make it a viable option for people that go over with the intention of being a Code A player for quite some time. Code S is way too exclusive too be a viable option for the middle or the road foreign pro to shoot for, no matter what incentives you give them.
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A big issue with playing Code A online would be latency, it seems like alot of the online tournaments that Korean players participate in they're constantly having to deal with lag. Again, I think the entry process, the having to "play" your way into Code A, is part of what makes the GSL such a prestigious tournament.
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If some post this factually wrong was posted against any tournament but GSL, mods would've removed it by now. BS.
If the GSL doesn't want to highlight mediocre Koreans, why should they help out mediocre foreigners? When the NASL tried to go out of its way to exclude Koreans but xeris got caught? When the NASL was about how MUCH artificial limitation of koreans there should be? GSL hopefully will accommodate tip top dedicated foreigners like naniwa, maybe even some favoritism, but in now way should they accommodate the mediocre players that have said they don't want to go to Korea, like Tyler. Good news is that people like kas and thorzain have seemed to get a good amount of Korean fans from the TSL.
Fucking XERIS of all people...
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On May 28 2011 01:28 Rasun wrote:
I think Code A is the biggest problem. A month long for a tiny prize pool. I really wish they would about triple that prize pool. Make being a Code A player worth it, make it a viable option for people that go over with the intention of being a Code A player for quite some time. Code S is way too exclusive too be a viable option for the middle or the road foreign pro to shoot for, no matter what incentives you give them.
Well GSL code a or code s is not for middle of the road players, especially code s its for the best of the best.
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people need to stop looking at code A like it's supposed to be the goal... code A is merely the means to achieve the end goal. Code S. It's like saying the TSL qualifier tournaments didn't pay enough to it's winners, when that wasn't the point, the TSL3 was the end result of those qualifier tournaments, code A is the qualifier for Code S.
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EPT
