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On May 23 2011 21:17 schI2ler wrote:
Nayl I just don't think you are right.
a) I don't think that MMA Losira and Bomber are the best Korea has.
b) I don't think that GSL gives more room to individuals than NASL.
c) I do watch GSL but I don't care, so I see whats happening but I don't think it's dope, so I "know" the players.
d) I don't think that I "discover timings" by watching GSL, I think playing helps.
e) I don't think foreigners turtle all day long and don't know when to attack or how to defend.
f) I don't think that 8 base 1v1 is bronze-silver I sure hope it's the future.
They aren't obviously BEST they have, but they are no where near B teamers.
Your second statement is so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. What exactly does NASL do that gives player more room that GSL doesn't? In GSL you also actually get to see their face and reaction.
You don't care because you don't like Korea.
I don't mean for YOU to discover timings by watching GSL, What I'm saying is they are doing the right thing by exploring timing pushes.
You don't think so? + Show Spoiler +Then why did IdrA lose to Zenio yesterday despite being 30 food ahead in a mirror match?
8 base 1v1 is bronze level play in SC2. The game isn't meant to last that long.
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On May 23 2011 21:12 SenorChang wrote:
You really don't know what you're talking about, some great styles have come out of the GSL, Kyrix's baneling agression. MKP started the very very heavy marine play which heavily effected TvZ, not only in korea, but in every other single region. July's style of mass agression after getting a decent economy.
Have you seen Fruitdealer's run through the open season 1 of GSL? Where zerg was viewed as the weakest race by far and seemed like it was impossible to win against terran. He used his own 'playstile' (to quote you) to go through a sea of terran and probably create the most memorable run through the GSL.
Alot of the korean players are fan favourites because of their unique styles, because of their dominance (MC, Nestea, MVP - all dual-champions).
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Your argument seems shallow and uninformed, don't generalise an entire region of players.
What makes you think I don't give credit to all the great styles that GSL brought us? All I said was, that lot of it is not "invented" at GSL but comes out of the korean ladder. The korean ladder is in my eyes by far the most skilled area to practice and learn your timings and see new brilliant builds.
But I just don't think that every player from korea is better than every player from the rest of the world.
The Fruitdealer run was epic, and I still hope he comes back huge. MC Nestea, MVP and many others are great and I love to watch them, but I feel like they are not only great in micro and macro but that they also understand a huge deal about the game in total and especially the relative matchup.
Also I really don't get all the hate. I did not generalise an entire region of players.
edit: Free the topic, I stop chatting here, join #tl
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On May 23 2011 21:31 schI2ler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 21:12 SenorChang wrote:
You really don't know what you're talking about, some great styles have come out of the GSL, Kyrix's baneling agression. MKP started the very very heavy marine play which heavily effected TvZ, not only in korea, but in every other single region. July's style of mass agression after getting a decent economy.
Have you seen Fruitdealer's run through the open season 1 of GSL? Where zerg was viewed as the weakest race by far and seemed like it was impossible to win against terran. He used his own 'playstile' (to quote you) to go through a sea of terran and probably create the most memorable run through the GSL.
Alot of the korean players are fan favourites because of their unique styles, because of their dominance (MC, Nestea, MVP - all dual-champions).
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Your argument seems shallow and uninformed, don't generalise an entire region of players. What makes you think I don't give credit to all the great styles that GSL brought us? All I said was, that lot of it is not "invented" at GSL but comes out of the korean ladder. The korean ladder is in my eyes by far the most skilled area to practice and learn your timings and see new brilliant builds. But I just don't think that every player from korea is better than every player from the rest of the world. The Fruitdealer run was epic, and I still hope he comes back huge. MC Nestea, MVP and many others are great and I love to watch them, but I feel like they are not only great in micro and macro but that they also understand a huge deal about the game in total and especially the relative matchup. Also I really don't get all the hate. I did not generalise an entire region of players.
Still ignoring the fact you were completely wrong about the MLG code S invite.
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On May 23 2011 20:50 schI2ler wrote:
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
Did you not say, you were not watching GSL anymore for two seasons? But you still do a sweeping generalization of GSL/GSTL play that seems wrong to me in my unskilled SC2 spectator mind. I feel I got to see a good amount of long games with the new maps, less unrefined play than outside of the Korean scene and also successful play that felt unconventional. And you get to see the actual individuals in GOM broadcasts! I did not see anything comparable except the Dreamhack Invitational which was an awesome (probably the best) event from start to finish.
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On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote:
I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
This is so untrue I don't even know where to begin. When Ret, Haypro, MoonGlade, and Huk qualified for code A in March, they didn't face each other at all. Actually, the only one to advance was Huk.
Also, do you think any EU/NA tournament is going to give an all expense paid trip to any Korean if they come to a tourney? Do you think the NASL is going to give an all expense paid trip to anyone that qualifies for the top 16?
Get it right, foreigners are non-existent because A) They choose to be, or B) They aren't good enough yet.
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I think one of the biggest problems with GSL / "the korean problem" is that they have been the top dog of SC broadcasting for years, mostly for lack of heavy competition. I think they really need to re-think HOW they see themselves and their players in the world stage before they come off as being "superior" or "stuck up" about their skill.
I'm just afraid that GSL will fall into the shadows because everyone sees them as the main competition. When (notice i said when) some other business decides that sc2 is a huge money maker, it will dwarf what GSL has done. You start getting Coke or Pepsi involved with this stuff, we'll start having stadiums built FOR sc2 (or e-sports) and then GOM will look like a back-yard production. It's just a matter of how they want to evolve. Evolve by trying to be more world oriented, or try to keep a strangle hold on the industry and possibly get produced out of existence (which I hope the latter does not happen).
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Well written article, elaborated on a few points we haven't talked about alot. I think in another half a year SC might truly be in more of a global state. Cheers!
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On May 23 2011 20:50 schI2ler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 20:02 cheesemaster wrote:
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you: GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them. If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and then he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face? I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed. But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership. And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada. And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
Your completely wrong there the additional code s spot WAS ALWAYS THERE!
It really pisses me off how many people didnt actually read the original announcement properly, The first day the announcment came out i read it , and it said "After MLG Columbus the winner of MLG will get a seed into code s or something along those lines" they didnt change it because of some uprise from the foreigners or whatever nonesense you are spouting.
God its ridiculous how many people need to learn how to read. Its really xeris's fault that you think this though, but just because he didnt read the announcement properly doesnt mean that what he said in his OP is true. From day 1 of the announcement it has said that there will be a code s spot given to the winner of MLG , after columbus of course.
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On May 24 2011 00:57 DeamonMachine wrote:
I think one of the biggest problems with GSL / "the korean problem" is that they have been the top dog of SC broadcasting for years, mostly for lack of heavy competition. I think they really need to re-think HOW they see themselves and their players in the world stage before they come off as being "superior" or "stuck up" about their skill.
I'm just afraid that GSL will fall into the shadows because everyone sees them as the main competition. When (notice i said when) some other business decides that sc2 is a huge money maker, it will dwarf what GSL has done. You start getting Coke or Pepsi involved with this stuff, we'll start having stadiums built FOR sc2 (or e-sports) and then GOM will look like a back-yard production. It's just a matter of how they want to evolve. Evolve by trying to be more world oriented, or try to keep a strangle hold on the industry and possibly get produced out of existence (which I hope the latter does not happen).
lol, and you dont think gom will evolve with the rest of them. If e-sports starts to get big in the west GSL will still be the main thing people watch therefore it will grow and grow with the rest of the leagues, coke has already sponsored GSL, and you dont think companies like LG are huge?
Have you even seen a GSL finals before, i highly doubt we will ever see anything with that high of a production value in the west. Or did you see the world championship game on the 50 foot 3d screen at the LG convention center.
Its not like e-sports is really exploding in the west as much as people say, aside from the first day NASL has never seen more than 20k viewers, i dont even know if thats enough to stay afloat i certainly think that they thought it would be much bigger.
I just dont see how you think that esports will grow but GSL wont with it, that doesnt really make sense if more people start getting into esports gom will be their go to programing as it features the best players and the highest production value, its not like this is just going to happen over night , as more and more people get into it more and more people will start to watch the GSL along with other productions, the two arent exclusive.
I still dont think that getting 10-20k viewers for tournaments in the west right now is a sign that esports is exploading that really isnt that many people. I mean commercial wise justin tv gives something like 2.50 cents per 1000 impressions i heard (something like that) meaning that fromm commercials right now NASL isnt making anymore then a couple hundred bucks per broadcast. Unless things really start exploading i dont see it being a hugely sucessful venture maybe it will continue with a lower prize pool but its not getting 300k or more viewers like GSL and the vods arent getting hundreds of thousands of views or anything close to that either. I mean the worst finals for the GSL yet already has close to 200k views for its vod. NASL has at max like 10k for a vod that i have seen most sit in the 100's and a few in the low 1000's
GSL will never look like a backyard production either i dont know how you could say that, some of their finals look like prestigious award ceramonies with the highest production values. I dont think starcraft in the west will ever become that, mainly because the offline league format doesnt work , or foreigners are too lazy to make it work/ dont want to give up where they live to make esports better wich is totally understandable because despite all this talk about esports growing in the west, it still really isnt that big at all, korea still has a bigger esports community (including sc1) then the rest of the world, and has more people that watch esports. The west has alot of potential it just isnt there yet and i dont know if it will ever be, its not like since all these new leagues have come out (NASL, IPL) we are seeing record numbers or anyhting
Althought with TSL i would say yes 60k viewers is quite impressive, but it was a tournament held on weekends i doubt they could keep those numbers up 4-5 days a week, and thats like the bare minimum amount of viewers i would say are needed for any huge company to start taking interest in esports. Sure 20k viewers is alright, but coke or pepsi isnt going to pay alot to make an impression on 20k viewers and they have far far better opportunities to make impressions on millions of people at once.
This whole attitude of GSL is going to fail soon and we are going to crush them is terrible. Why wouldnt you hope that all leagues succeed?
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GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
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On May 24 2011 00:30 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote:
I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
This is so untrue I don't even know where to begin. When Ret, Haypro, MoonGlade, and Huk qualified for code A in March, they didn't face each other at all. Actually, the only one to advance was Huk. Also, do you think any EU/NA tournament is going to give an all expense paid trip to any Korean if they come to a tourney? Do you think the NASL is going to give an all expense paid trip to anyone that qualifies for the top 16? Get it right, foreigners are non-existent because A) They choose to be, or B) They aren't good enough yet.
Yes? MLG is having it. Didn't TSL have it too?
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Is the amount of practice that determine if someone will end up being good or bad. Just look at the team league, and how serious they are about training. They have a team house just for training. Accommodations and food are all provided. Which foreigners team are even on par with them?
Saying foreigners are better is an insult to the Koreans. They train harder so they deserve to be better, and it is almost clearly the case. The difference is not that huge, but expect it to widen. Whoever trains more becomes better in the best possible environment becomes better.
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Face it, a majority foreign pro gamers wouldn't even put themselves in the cramped situations that pro-gamers in Korea do even IF given the chance aside from the obvious people (Jinro, HuK, HayPro, Ret and such).
Maybe that is what is needed though, a large amount of people living together, watching each other play every day and bouncing ideas off each other. But if foreign pro gamers are going to be snobs about it, not want to live in those conditions, then they deserve to be worse. You can't expect to be the best, without sacrificing something in return. Similarly, you can't expect to be the best, if you don't put in nearly as much work. So foreign progamers might say "I don't want to live in conditions like that, nor do I want to have such a rigid practice schedule." Thats fine, no one holds you to it, hell, I wouldn't want to live like that either. Difference is, I don't expect to be the best, and when I'm not, I don't complain about "Koreans invading my tournaments".
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On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote:
GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
Don't hate just because Zotac the only thing a lot of these people can win! hahaha
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On May 24 2011 18:43 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote:
GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers. Don't hate just because Zotac the only thing a lot of these people can win! hahaha
Its funny the amount of people who use the argument "but they miss out on all the smaller online tournaments!" as a good reason to not go to korea. I have a few questions for thoes people. If you won 10 of those smaller online tournaments in the same amount of time as the gsl (3weeks) would you make even nearly as much money as getting to round of 8 in the gsl? Have you ever seen anyone in the tournament round up win anymore then 3 or so online cups in a 2 week period (because i dont think i have seen anyone do that aside from maybe kas and even then it was 5 or so and he made like 900 bucks wich isnt even as much as losing in the first round of code s) If online tournaments were really that important to you couldnt you just play in them anyways as far as i know every fxopen tournament so far has been won by a korean they dont seem to have a problem doing it when they actually know about a smaller online tournament/are invited.
All of these seem like minor details to hate on korea/ GSL and really i havent seen one person who agrees with xeris who even mentions that they like the GSL they all seem to be GSL haters/ people who dont watch it / dont want to pay for it or stay up for it, wich is understandable but i dont think these people realise how much better the GSL is in terms of production , player quality , the fact that it is a live ongoing league, the prize pool (2 and a half gsl's happen over the course of an NASL gsl's have approximately 125k prize pool meaning the prize pool is essentially 4 times as big as the NASL). Honestly there are so many benifits to going to korea now with the MLG exchange program and the fact that the GSL has changed their format so you as a foreigner will know if you are in the up and down matches within 5 days after it starts means it isnt such a big commitment anymore not to mention the fact that it is all expenses paid courtesy of GSL.
Incontrol (who didnt have a team or practice partners out in korea just idra and a few friends the same people you would probably have access to as a foreigner in korea minus idra) said that his 3 weeks in korea was where he had improved the most in his whole career and that 3 weeks in korea where equal to several months of practice (he made have said 6 months but it was at least 3) back in NA.
Xeris get your facts straight please it totally sucks that you wont update this post as people keep posting and agreeing with you on points that arent even valid like "yea gsl sucks why dont they give seed to code s from MLG" things along those lines where people are agreeing with the bad information you posted and most likely drawing their conclusions from your post, was your goal really to make a bunch of people hate the GSL, i dont think so i think you were trying to explain why you dont think going to korea is valid for foreigners anymore (although i dont agree with yoou i see where your coming from i guess) but somehow fromm yor posts spawned many many gsl hate posts within it. Someone in your position shouldnt want to discredit a league.
How did you feel when people were spewing hate about the NASL and coming to their own conclusions about formats even after you guys changed the format and hating on things that werent even set it stone(just like the gsl format wasnt set in stone they had mentioned it was going to change days before you made this post and then you go on to attack the format and they change it to be much much more appealing for foreigners a day or so later), it didnt feel good and im sure you wouldnt want the same thing for the GSL.
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Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
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On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote:
GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
The good thing is that MLG winners are (up to now) all more or less code S worthy if you look the history. (idra, jinro, nani, kiwi, huk)
So we can expect that the foreigners that will win their code S spot throught MLG won't be ridiculous 
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards. I remember at least a post on TL (perhaps in this very thread) from Morrow (don't quote me on this). I guess they talked about it in sotg too, but I don't clearly remember.
The thing I don't understand about this is, all these guys are around 20 year olds. I remember when I was 20, I dreamed to travel and I can't even imagine me refusing a 1 month all expanses paid trip to Korea at this time. And it's certainly not bunk beds that would have stopped me :D
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On May 23 2011 16:56 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 16:37 babylon wrote:On May 23 2011 16:26 Sandro wrote:On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote:
Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen. Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work. Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here. I'm a believer that motivation should come from WITHIN. I find it really pathetic that people still try and use the "Koreans have a better environment" argument. We've all seen their team houses, we've all seen them crammed 4-6 people per room living in bunk beds. They gave up a lot for this "better environment" work environment. TLO's pro house could easily fit a lot more people too if they wanted to, but they DONT WANT TO. Foreign players haven't been able to set up team houses yet partially because a) they don't want to leave home and b) if they could/or did want to leave home, they don't want to live in such conditions like Korean team houses. So what happens when you have people being picky about living arrangements? You have a much higher barrier to entry to set up a team house because you need to find a MUCH larger place for everyone to have their own room etc etc., leading to much higher overhead costs per individual. The Koreans aren't only putting in "more hours" a day, but basically giving up personal space, and a comfortable living arrangement to be cramped with other people. It looks "fun" but after a while, I guarantee sleeping in bunk beds and sharing 2 bathrooms amongst 10 people isn't so fun. Maybe this is what it takes, maybe it takes living all together in one apartment/house, working together all day, but that takes sacrifices too. If people aren't willing to make that sacrifice then they shouldn't complain and say "Koreans have a better environment."
S-Korea is a tiny country with a huge population density and almost every single SC2 related event takes place in or near Seoul. That alone is a huge advantage when it comes to setting up team houses.
Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany?
The foreign teams can't just replicate the Korean team house format because their environment doesn't allow it. It just wouldn't be practical.
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On May 24 2011 23:12 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 16:56 ct2299 wrote:On May 23 2011 16:37 babylon wrote:On May 23 2011 16:26 Sandro wrote:On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote:
Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen. Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work. Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here. I'm a believer that motivation should come from WITHIN. I find it really pathetic that people still try and use the "Koreans have a better environment" argument. We've all seen their team houses, we've all seen them crammed 4-6 people per room living in bunk beds. They gave up a lot for this "better environment" work environment. TLO's pro house could easily fit a lot more people too if they wanted to, but they DONT WANT TO. Foreign players haven't been able to set up team houses yet partially because a) they don't want to leave home and b) if they could/or did want to leave home, they don't want to live in such conditions like Korean team houses. So what happens when you have people being picky about living arrangements? You have a much higher barrier to entry to set up a team house because you need to find a MUCH larger place for everyone to have their own room etc etc., leading to much higher overhead costs per individual. The Koreans aren't only putting in "more hours" a day, but basically giving up personal space, and a comfortable living arrangement to be cramped with other people. It looks "fun" but after a while, I guarantee sleeping in bunk beds and sharing 2 bathrooms amongst 10 people isn't so fun. Maybe this is what it takes, maybe it takes living all together in one apartment/house, working together all day, but that takes sacrifices too. If people aren't willing to make that sacrifice then they shouldn't complain and say "Koreans have a better environment." S-Korea is a tiny country with a huge population density and almost every single SC2 related event takes place in or near Seoul. That alone is a huge advantage when it comes to setting up team houses. Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany? The foreign teams can't just replicate the Korean team house format because their environment doesn't allow it. It just wouldn't be practical.
Hmmm I'm sorry, I really don't think your point is valid. Why? Sponsors as is, are already paying to have all the members of a team flown to various events across the United States, such as MLG and such, which right now is I THINK, the only live event in the US anyways. So getting to and from events isn't a problem
Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany?
Again, what does size of the country have anything to do with anything? As mentioned earlier, sponsors pay for teams to send their players to live events such as MLG. Everything else in the US (NASL, Zotac, IPL, or whatever) is all online ANYWAYS. I don't see what difference that makes to have everyone move together. Once again it's a commitment thing. I really don't see how much it costs to live rent a small house/ small apartment in the US, where property prices aside from New York, are depressed right now. All it takes is for people to move from their individual apartments (or out of home) and get the funds to rent somewhere to move together. Hell, each individual player can buy their own ticket to be honest. I really don't see the problem that you mention being an issue at all, aside from some of the gamers who are still in school, but for the ones who are done and are doing this professionally, it takes a leap of faith and commitment to move somewhere together and I don't think people are willing to do that yet.
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On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote:
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
It's been mentioned before by a lot of the foreigners that they don't enjoy living with multiple people in the same room. Everything else may not be cramped, but I guess the sleeping arrangements are. I remember Morrow mentioning it, i THINK TLO, and some other people have voiced before that living together in the same room with other people with no privacy was definitely a negative factor to living in Korea in the team house environment.
I really don't hold it against people for not liking it, it really isn't that great of an environment to live in. But the fact is, it shows that this environment really does produce results, so if foreigners aren't ready to make that big of a commitment, then I think it's natural that we expect the Korea/Rest of the World gap to possibly continue to expand.
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EPT
