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On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better.
The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons?
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On May 22 2011 21:29 LaiShin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:21 Vei wrote:imagine instead of having to split your marines you just had to press a button that made them split like the second image  obviously baneling splash will be increased to compensate
I think this would create issues with mineral lines though. Pathing changes wouldn't affect workers because they would phase through each other, and as a result a baneling damage radius increase would destroy mineral lines even more efficiently than it already does. I see a problem with that.
Edit: Just wanted to elaborate a bit, that my opinion on this echoes a lot of what has been said, that these changes are too large for blizzard to implement. Not only would the infestor and baneling have to be re-worked in order to be useful with the pathing changes, but maps would be drastically different in order for these units to be viable at all. More choke points would be needed, and zerg needs open spaces for surrounds in order to be most effective. Just my perspective.
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On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons?
How does making units stay further away from each other have absolutely anything to do with Dragoon AI?
Regardless, I'd trade Dragoon AI for the awful way SC2 units work right now any day.
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On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons?
I would give a kidney for BW style AI and unit control, alas that will never happen.
This just isn't something that Blizzard would consider, they're off in their own little world and nobody can reach them.
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the way the units moved in SC were mainly because of the technology they had back then. In WC3, units are much more fluid, and they automatically space out.
I'd prefer the WC3 pathing over SC's any day.
I'd be okay with this idea, as long as all splash units are adjusted accordingly. (no doubt, they would be.)
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I don't see the appeal of dragoon a.i and some of the bad a.i from SC1. Yeah it added more useless skill tests and requirements, but it's just plain bad gameplay. It's like asking for the camera in a Mario game to purposely hinder what you want to do, or where to go, so it can kill you instead for the sake of "skills".
With that said, I don't like the clumping in SC2. I wish they would spread a little more, but I sure as hell don't want dumb dragoon a.i.
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i wish we could have dynamic movement like this, but blizzard seems very resistant to making stuff more like bw, since browder and crew become extremely defensive when sc2 is compared to bw
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I think the biggest way to get this change passed isto hit Blizzard where it hurts, their beloved ladder system. Somebody should make some custom maps that allow the dynamic army movement and maybe the moving shot and create some sort of league around it. It's probably impossible but maybe if enough people played, I'm sure Blizzard would at least get the message.
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I would love to see a switch button for changing in between the two modes - there are times when you want your army to get as fast as possible up a ramp and one would like to use the current method... and there are times when you wanna engage siege tanks with zergling/baneling (or collossi with bio) and you would like to switch to dynamic.
Nowadays every attempt to split and properly position an army to avoid getting one-shotted is reset after a simple kite or pulling back ~10 range so the attacking army clumps again because of the "smart AI".
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On June 14 2011 11:32 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons? How does making units stay further away from each other have absolutely anything to do with Dragoon AI? Regardless, I'd trade Dragoon AI for the awful way SC2 units work right now any day.
Dragoons were retarded because they tried to avoid each other, while being really fat so they often couldn't. They would act much like stalkers with SC2's AI.
I can't even comprehend how anyone can think SC2 units work in an "awful" way. Their AI is excellent. They actually do what you ask them to, unlike BW units.
Making collision boxes bigger would be OK, that would "de-ball" the game some without screwing up the AI, but I'm very very opposed to any change to archaic shitty BW AI.
Anyway it's moot: Blizzard have said they consider BW AI to be terrible and won't be using it.
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On June 14 2011 19:43 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 11:32 Angra wrote:On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons? How does making units stay further away from each other have absolutely anything to do with Dragoon AI? Regardless, I'd trade Dragoon AI for the awful way SC2 units work right now any day. Dragoons were retarded because they tried to avoid each other, while being really fat so they often couldn't. They would act much like stalkers with SC2's AI. I can't even comprehend how anyone can think SC2 units work in an "awful" way. Their AI is excellent. They actually do what you ask them to, unlike BW units. Making collision boxes bigger would be OK, that would "de-ball" the game some without screwing up the AI, but I'm very very opposed to any change to archaic shitty BW AI. Anyway it's moot: Blizzard have said they consider BW AI to be terrible and won't be using it.
I think I've explained 1 million times over that dynamic pathing has nothing to do with BW AI.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171
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I'm one of the pro sc2 clumping players... Anyone who thinks SC2 is an a-moved ball vs an a-moved ball obviously isn't playing at a decent level. Maybe when I'd watch streams in beta, I'd see such clumsy control of 1a vs 1a.
If you think it's really just grabbing a group of units and attacking because of SC2's unit control, well, you're wrong. The concave vs convex is probably the first thing you need to learn. Then you need to learn what units go in front and which go in back. It kills me when I see a protoss attack with stalkers in front of the zealots, and -usually- (no protoss OP jokes!) it kills the protoss player. There are quite a few other unit control tricks to be painfully learned as one loses over and over learning SC2 battle management.
Making units space naturally is decreasing the skill required with SC2. As mentioned earlier in the thread, units like banelings would become crap if spacing was automatic. This argument is just... meh. Feels like one of those SC2 vs BW threads bumped by an angry, drunk BW player.
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On June 14 2011 19:48 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 19:43 Yaotzin wrote:On June 14 2011 11:32 Angra wrote:On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons? How does making units stay further away from each other have absolutely anything to do with Dragoon AI? Regardless, I'd trade Dragoon AI for the awful way SC2 units work right now any day. Dragoons were retarded because they tried to avoid each other, while being really fat so they often couldn't. They would act much like stalkers with SC2's AI. I can't even comprehend how anyone can think SC2 units work in an "awful" way. Their AI is excellent. They actually do what you ask them to, unlike BW units. Making collision boxes bigger would be OK, that would "de-ball" the game some without screwing up the AI, but I'm very very opposed to any change to archaic shitty BW AI. Anyway it's moot: Blizzard have said they consider BW AI to be terrible and won't be using it. I think I've explained 1 million times over that dynamic pathing has nothing to do with BW AI. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171
Your post says that BW's "dynamic unit movement" is merely a side effect from it's poor (well, understandably primitive) AI, yes?
How is one supposed to achieve this effect while keeping SC2's far superior AI?
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On May 29 2011 22:34 Roblin wrote:
also, those that do not have a background of broodwar may not find this intuitive but:
if you have a massive army, terrain actually matters. movement through a choke would no longer take 2-4 seconds, it would take 15-20 seconds (this is not an overestimate). now imagine if the entirety of the opponents army gets to fight a trickle of your army, the result would be devestating.
the aspect of fighting on the move would be extremely changed, tanks with good position would have their effectiveness at least tripled, drops and nydus worms would become relevant factors since they let you ignore terrain, fungal growth and forcefields would be able to easily constrict movement even in seemingly open terrain, battles would look much more epic since the visual size of armies would be tripled or quadroupled, a storm on one spot on the opponent could very well deal many times the damage that it would on another spot, the opponent would actually have to attempt to dodge these more powerful storms, ultralisks would no longer look ridicolously big and would be a much smaller issue regarding AI and A-moved blobs would become much weaker since the "tail" of the army would arrive much much later than the "head", effectively cutting DPS by A LOT!
some things listed above would be purely aestethical, but most of them would be factors that introduced some kind of new micro.
I'm sure the proposed change isn't forcing big gaps between units, but when you go through a choke, if you clump up all your units, you can get through it quicker but an area of effect spell(which would be buffed due to the ability to spread) would kill most of your army
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On June 14 2011 11:54 N3rV[Green] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons? I would give a kidney for BW style AI and unit control, alas that will never happen. This just isn't something that Blizzard would consider, they're off in their own little world and nobody can reach them.
Saying that sc2 style unit control is caused by Blizzard ignoring you is pretty ignorant. Unit control in sc2 is fucking lightyears ahead of BW's. If you want your units spread out, you can already do it manually and magic box. It certainly shouldn't be caused by units that don't know how to path properly and take ages to walk around each other.
My suggestion earlier in this thread is just that blizzard add two buttons to "spread" and "combine" your selected group of units. The ones on the edges would walk "out" of the circle and the ones in the ball would move proportional to their distance from the edge. This would remove any micro required to maintain spread and would also eliminate the retarded BW pathing that many of you are saying is necessary.
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yep the spreading is already there people are just to lazy to use it and want the C&C red alert X button so infantry autosplits lol. While at it we should implent you only have to build 1 unit and the difference of this unit between the races is just graphical. Oh and of course add some mind numbing effects so it would look awesome ...
But as mentioned above Warcraft3 had a nice function of formation that could be turned off. (though warcraft 3 revolved more about micro and every race having units able of tanking, so not something you could use in sc2 as a normal move, so magic boxing is the way to use it)
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People seem to forget that the way the units moved in broodwar was because of shoddy programming, or programming that had yet to evolve. If the units moved the same way in sc2 it would be hilarious.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Okay. I've read the OP, and I'm genuinely confused why people have made such a big deal about this. In my opinion clumping isn't worse than the spread out mechanics of BW.
1. (the most important) Unit movements become more dynamic.
Even if you hotkey them separately, those small groups will move like a clump of jelly anyways. It doesn't look natural, and your army looks smaller than it actually is.
This is the most important problem? That the game looks a bit funny? First of all, it's an opinion, I personally think things like speedlings looks much cooler in SC2. But even then, you would consider changing the game beyond belief, resetting almost all balance, JUST SO THINGS LOOK A TINY BIT BETTER?!?!? That seems insane.
2. It's easier to tell the difference between units.
SCBW is in 2-d and it uses less colours, while SC2 is 3-d and uses a variety of colours. So it's easier to differentiate units in SCBW. You can tell this by playing SC2 in the lowest graphic settings.
The lowest graphic setting allows you to tell the difference between units and the difference between units and map tiles much more effectively.
This one is vaguely legitimate, in that it improves SC2 as a spectator sport. However, again this seems kinda petty. And the main reason why in BW it was easier to tell differences was, as you said, the more defined colour palette and the fact it was 2D. So, really, having unit clumping is not the major reason for the relative difficulty in seeing what is happening during battles, the improved graphics are, and I personally prefer these graphics to the BW graphics.
3. You can weaken the power of splash units.
If you look at the units that do splash damage,
siege mode tanks, thor's air attack, ghost's EMP and nuclear missile, raven's HSM, colossus, high templar's storm, infestor's fungal growth,
most of them have been nerfed since beta.
This one confused me the most. I understand that by spreading units you reduce the effectiveness of splash units. But why is this considered a benefit of having "Dynamic Unit Movements?" As people have said before, you will need to rebalance the splash attacks to make them potent again. So how is unit spreading good in this situation? It is merely different. From this perspective, all that will happen if BW unit spreading happens is another couple of months of constant patching in trying to balance the game again. And that is a bad thing.
One reason why they are so strong is because units always move together in clumps.
Some people will tell you to separate your units beforehand, but they clump up again when you move them around to attack.
So, what you are saying is that, at an extremely high level, SC2 will require a form of very difficult micro that BW didn't? And that's a bad thing? No. It is most definitely a very good thing.
4. The firepower decreases and the duration of battles increases.
One of the main issues with SC2 since the release was that the battles didn't last very long.
Along with complaints such as 'the maps are too narrow', 'the game time is too fast', I think this is a legit explanation as well. This is why we should change the tendency for units to clump together.
Admittedly, battles are quicker in SC2. And it is really a matter of opinion whether that is a problem. You could say that quicker battles are much more punishing, and therefore, favour the better player more, as player have to be really quick on their micro to win. However, even if you do see shorter battles as a negative, in the future, in order to win battles, players will have to spread units manually to avoid large splash damage. And again, this is a good thing. More micro will be required to be good. SC2 clumping mechanics ftw!
So. What's the problem? Clumping mechanics and smart AI means that new players can do simple things like attack move without constantly nannying their units (a good thing), whereas really good players can stand out by having exceptional individual unit control (also a really good thing). It's a win-win.
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Leave it alone obviously. Would take the game back to beta for years.
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EPT
