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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Fuuuuuuuuuuu Seriously, I'm a staunch opponent of these kinds of things. Starcraft 2 is Starcraft 2, for better or worse, let us play the game we are playing and not complain that we're not playing brood war with augmented features. I know that units clumping is not entertaining to some people but (Despite being a zerg player) when I saw Polt stim stuttering a ball of marauders I could not help but marvel at how amazing his balls were. Yeah. | ||
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Cheezy
Sweden112 Posts
Yeah, sure, but it's annoying when the game is made in such a way that it discourages individual unit movement. No matter what you do, the units will clump into groups when you move them again, which is retarded | ||
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DerNebel
Denmark648 Posts
And to everyone talking about the micro recquired to beat the blob at the highest echelons of play, the same people hating on "fighting the AI", isn't that just fighting the SC2 AI? Why should the simple act of killing a supply depot at the ramp, or killing marines spawning out of a barracks during a 6pool, something anyone can do in SC2 with a simple right-click or attack-move, be equally effective for everyone? Shouldn't there be a difference in unit control skill between a bronze and a platinum player, such as the muta control of a C+ player in BW compared to a D-level one? The balance issue arguments both in the OP and from everyone speaking against it feels not only hollow but also pointless. This isn't BW with Blizzard going "Deal with it.". If we can expect them to "fix" the 7rax Reaper and the 2gate, then why can't we expect them to make the game more skillful while also making it fun to watch? And when it comes right down to the wire, wouldn't you like bigger, more dramatic looking psionic storms, bigger tank shots and bigger baneling bombs? Wouldn't you like two storms to ACTUALLY rip through a worker line? I also think it is dumb to say that aesthetics is a silly thing to make such a "huge" change over. (HINT: It's not actually huge, same units, same mechanics, balance can be fixed, only the blob will die). This game was. according to the dev and PR teams before realease, developed with spectating and ESPORTS in mind. If spectating was a core goal and function of my product, I'd make sure it looked nice. The game is so exciting and great right now. Noone will deny that, at least not in this subforum. I just wish it would be awesome. I just wish it would stop feeling like a great RTS with Jim Raynor on the cover and start feeling like StarCraft 2. The heir apparent, so to speak, not the squire. For ESPORTS And on a less teenager-locked-up-in-a-room-with-issues-flavoured note: On June 15 2011 00:12 Probe1 wrote: I know that units clumping is not entertaining to some people but (Despite being a zerg player) when I saw Polt stim stuttering a ball of marauders I could not help but marvel at how amazing his balls were. Seriously?  EDIT: Yes, it's the room that has issues. | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
As it turns out, the most efficient pathing noes not mean the best gameplay either. Huge balls of units that move fluidly look unnatural and exponentially raise the power of both ranged units and splash attacks, distorting intended gameplay. We need a pathing engine that responds to commands impecabbly without using fluid physics to move unit groups, and the OP has nailed it. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On May 19 2011 14:18 Kovaz wrote: Just a thought I had the other day: Because of the auto-ball pathing, the race with the most powerful AoE will always have the most powerful 200/200 army. Think about it: why is the Colossus so good? Units just align themselves naturally with its splash radius. Same with HTs. That's why toss is so good late game. Same thing to a lesser extent with terran Siege Tanks and vP Ghosts work the same way. Their damage is always maximized because units just like to cluster up so much. That's also why zerg seems so much weaker: they don't really have a dominant AoE unit so they can't exploit the game's natural mechanics for army positioning as much. This sums up almost everything that SC2 needs to improve on. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
So basically you want the units to auto-seperate. I thought the staunch BW elitist hated automation. But it goes back to something like BW it's OK apparently. There's really no argument for why this would improve the game. Just "it was like this in BW lol" | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:12 Probe1 wrote: "Bliz announces today that WC3 AI has been implemented in starcraft 2, however siege tanks splash damage range has been increased 100%" Fuuuuuuuuuuu Seriously, I'm a staunch opponent of these kinds of things. Starcraft 2 is Starcraft 2, for better or worse, let us play the game we are playing and not complain that we're not playing brood war with augmented features. I know that units clumping is not entertaining to some people but (Despite being a zerg player) when I saw Polt stim stuttering a ball of marauders I could not help but marvel at how amazing his balls were. Yeah. if there is room for improvement, why not improve? whats more amazing than polt's stim is bisu and flash's dragoon vs vulture mine. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On June 15 2011 02:13 Ownos wrote: Some people are just stuck in the past. So basically you want the units to auto-seperate. I thought the staunch BW elitist hated automation. But it goes back to something like BW it's OK apparently. There's really no argument for why this would improve the game. Just "it was like this in BW lol" If you don't understand what it actually is, then don't speak. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:40 Cheezy wrote: I like how people says "People just need to learn how to split" Yeah, sure, but it's annoying when the game is made in such a way that it discourages individual unit movement. No matter what you do, the units will clump into groups when you move them again, which is retarded Yet BW is constantly praised for its "difficult" (retarded) unit AI, because you actually need skill to control them properly. I don't see how this is any different. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
This means that people making claims about things ruining, or even making it better, are not based in truth whatsoever. However, I wlll say that I agree with the OP. These kinds of things make the game more dynamic, from a general point of view. I seriously doubt people would have played (or still play) BW like they did (do) without dynamic unit movements. Polt's ball 'micro' takes SO MUCH LESS SKILL than the hard micro in BW, look at the above post's mention of Bisu and Flash's Goon vs Vulture fights. Those requires so many different kinds of actions, thoughts, and prediction that it would probably melt your brain trying to do it at home. THAT is ESPORTS, THAT is true skill, not something that anyone (including a computer program) can do. Any bronze player can learn how to split bio balls and end up running train on people, that's fine. But calling that micro 'intense', or 'hard' compared to the truly difficult mechanics of BW is silly. | ||
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kentarre
United States28 Posts
I can think of many situations where this AI would not be useful and in fact, detrimental. With basic unit movement and collisions being implemented in SC2, it seems more reasonable to impart the responsibility of positioning, specific unit movement, and unit scattering up to the player. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 15 2011 02:13 Ownos wrote: Some people are just stuck in the past. So basically you want the units to auto-seperate. I thought the staunch BW elitist hated automation. But it goes back to something like BW it's OK apparently. There's really no argument for why this would improve the game. Just "it was like this in BW lol" There's an overwhelming and undeniable argument for why this would make the game better for spectating in pretty much every way. You're just completely blind to it. Not only that, it's pretty hypocritical for anti-BW fans to call former BW players out because this would be "the computer spreading your units for you." Those same fans hated the old pathing because you had to control your units so much more - you essentially had to fight the pathing AI to get units to do what you wanted them to do. This is the exact same thing - you're just fighting the pathing AI to do something different. You want Dragoons to automatically go to the place you click without running around randomly? I don't want my units to automatically clump together whenever I have more than one selected and tell them to do something. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
I think in order for SC2 to match that, they need more positional micro elements, such as more inter-dependent AOE abilities that compensate for the smooth pathing engine. Blizzard have to realize that smoothness = 1. more realism; 2. less fun - believe it or not, realism isn't always fun. Take for example chess played with real people fighting on a free battlefield, instead of pawns on board squares: by becoming more realistic the game would lose all of its sophisticated thought processes. | ||
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starmeat_
105 Posts
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
On June 15 2011 02:59 figq wrote: Take for example chess played with real people fighting on a free battlefield, instead of pawns on board squares: by becoming more realistic the game would lose all of its sophisticated thought processes. I hope there's an annual award of some kind for worst analogy, because you just won the gold medal. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 15 2011 02:46 Chronald wrote: To say that this would ruin SC2 is stupid. SC2 is a game that no one even understands yet, at least not like BW is today. This means that people making claims about things ruining, or even making it better, are not based in truth whatsoever. However, I wlll say that I agree with the OP. These kinds of things make the game more dynamic, from a general point of view. I seriously doubt people would have played (or still play) BW like they did (do) without dynamic unit movements. Polt's ball 'micro' takes SO MUCH LESS SKILL than the hard micro in BW, look at the above post's mention of Bisu and Flash's Goon vs Vulture fights. Those requires so many different kinds of actions, thoughts, and prediction that it would probably melt your brain trying to do it at home. THAT is ESPORTS, THAT is true skill, not something that anyone (including a computer program) can do. Any bronze player can learn how to split bio balls and end up running train on people, that's fine. But calling that micro 'intense', or 'hard' compared to the truly difficult mechanics of BW is silly. If you actually believe that a programmed AI couldn't do that micro way, way better than a human ever could you're mistaken and, frankly, blinded by your love for those players. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 15 2011 03:01 giuocob wrote: Could you elaborate? I only get that you think this analogy is bad, not why.I hope there's an annual award of some kind for worst analogy, because you just won the gold medal. | ||
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