|
On May 19 2011 14:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 14:11 brownthing wrote:On May 19 2011 13:41 GoKu` wrote:
I personally hate the dynamic movement PURELY because it makes ghost EMPing nearly impossible if the ghost is in the blob of your army. It also makes the templar you are EMPing a lot harder to use.... Hasnt it been stated enough times already that a change to SC2 to include this would REQUIRE an adjustment to all area effects? I mean c'mon, how hard is it to come to that conclusion?
It seems that not all people are strong in the reflection department, I agree (note: not aiming this at anyone specific) <3
Anyways, I really love this ''new'' idea. I feel SC2 has some poor designs, designed to make the game easier for normal players, but might also make competitive play less dynamic = less fun, imo.
Cheers
|
I'd also rather a fun imbalanced game, than a boring balanced game.
|
On May 19 2011 12:44 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise. Its like ultimate marine splittingnall the time. This thread is worse than a balance discussion, its a mechanics disucussion. How much theorycraft do we get..
It's a design discussion, which should be very legitimate. It makes no sense whatsoever to have 500 APM and spend half of it keeping your units apart while moving across the map. This is an example of repetitive, extraneous APM that should not be part of any game.
BW's micro for the most part was very dynamic because of the magic boxes and the way it was designed...yes, things bugged out, but other than that, micro was not mostly about spreading your units but making use of terrain, chokes, focus firing etc. to gain an advantage.
When you see boxer's famous marine micro vs lurker ling, you can see the way he abuses the timing required to burrow to snipe them and reposition, having medics block melee units, moving behind minerals and zerg buildings to create artificial chokes...that was tactical genius that stemmed from snap decisions. It's far better to watch that having to manually separate your units one by one and calling it "micro".
|
On May 17 2011 10:26 WinteRR wrote:K3ny, I think you misinterpreted my post (or I didn't construe it with too much care  ). BW tanks were REALLY powerful but I think in SC2 Siege tanks seem strong because of this clumped up unit mechanic (when in actual fact, they're relatively weak ~35 dmg or so compared to the 70 dmg of old)
Actually the old also did around 35 damage to some types of units, you see, the damage of the siege tank in BW is explosive, explosive damage does 50% to small units, 75% to medium units, and 100% to large units (iirc), one of the only differences being that it dealt 70 damage to protoss shields.
|
Unless Blizzard has a way to implement this without losing the natural feel and the instant response of the current pathfinding, it's not going to work.
I've played no deathball map and it just isn't as fun as with the new pathfinding. Units don't get into range properly, and if this pathfinding is to be taken place, a HUGE amount of balancing will need to be tweaked.
The problem isn't just AoE, the problem is range. With the balls getting much wider, only smaller parts of a previous "ball" can get into range of firing.
Then you need to tweak other things such as range of casting, your templars would be far behind the regular troops to even have casting be a useful aspect of the game.
I think a few small tweaks can and probably will be done in HotS to increase the readability of the game but actually playing the game with big and wide units makes it not feel right.
To reiterate my points: The roach for instance no longer feels like a very microable unit. You can't run right in, snipe a stalker, keep running because they now have to keep a wide gap.
I think what the best solution for the future is somehow have units naturally band out like that and have some kind of magic box similar to BW.
|
On May 19 2011 18:32 wankey wrote:
Unless Blizzard has a way to implement this without losing the natural feel and the instant response of the current pathfinding, it's not going to work.
I've played no deathball map and it just isn't as fun as with the new pathfinding. Units don't get into range properly, and if this pathfinding is to be taken place, a HUGE amount of balancing will need to be tweaked.
The problem isn't just AoE, the problem is range. With the balls getting much wider, only smaller parts of a previous "ball" can get into range of firing.
Then you need to tweak other things such as range of casting, your templars would be far behind the regular troops to even have casting be a useful aspect of the game.
I think a few small tweaks can and probably will be done in HotS to increase the readability of the game but actually playing the game with big and wide units makes it not feel right.
To reiterate my points: The roach for instance no longer feels like a very microable unit. You can't run right in, snipe a stalker, keep running because they now have to keep a wide gap.
I think what the best solution for the future is somehow have units naturally band out like that and have some kind of magic box similar to BW.
I've tried that "no deathball" map myself and it doesn't illustrate what dynamic movement is talking about. The map basically just makes it so that units auto-spread, dynamic movement doesn't make units auto-spread it makes it so that when you move command, units move in relation to how they are originally positioned in the army i.e. they don't clump up. With dynamic movement you can clump them up if you want to, but on that map it doesn't really allow that I notice i.e. it doesn't demonstrate dynamic movement very well.
It would be nice if a good map-maker could make a map with dynamic movement that properly illustrates what the OP is suggesting.
|
On May 17 2011 16:23 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 16:07 IzieBoy wrote:
if they were to implement like spread formation that are in games like caesar and so on... then the gap at the pro scene would be even smaller... it takes a bit of micro to spread your marines... if there was a hotkey to spread them all out at once... that's just well... idk
you did mention something similar to what i was musing about:
what if you have a bunch of fast units pushing a slow unit somehow...
i know that you can technically push a warping archon around... it would be so cool to push ghosts that are nuking away from the spot lol... i doubt it would work though...they seem quite glued in place You're thinking about this in the completely wrong way. Yes this change would make Unit X vs Baneling easier to micro. However it would make practically all other engagements tougher to micro since it would make it more challenging to consolidate your army for maximum output. This change would be good as I feel right now SC2 unit AI as well as the infinite control groups is one of the biggest issues the game has. Trust me if BW players could move around with a deathball as large, smart and mobile as the ones we have in SC2 then they would be A-moving around the map as much as we do. Also think this would be better for spectators as right now large battles are usually the least interesting ones.
lol
many different formations: you can have an option to have normal AI pathing too
|
I support this . But I don't think Blizzard 'll make massive changes like these to improve the game, why? because they'll have to re balance lot of stuff and for the record, SC2 balance team loves to simplify mechanic ( also remove fun factor) in order to balance the game rather than make it more fun and dynamic, i.e : Remove Khaydarin Amulet, fix Vortex...
Yes, these things were kind of buggy but still because of them, the game was more dymanic. There were lot of way to fix it and keep SC2 fun to play/watch which it should be but Blizzard just nerf'ed them into oblivion instead.
So we can tell, Blizzard don't want to put effort to make the game complicated but more depth than it is now, their main target right now is to keep 50% win rate to all races in any leagues/tournaments.
Maybe SC2 won't become a shalow/boring but balanced game If they keep "polishing" it this way, IDK. But I don't think they'll make this kind of massive changes anytime soon either.
|
lol i miss total annihilation and supreme commander 2
it was fun, but sc2 has better looking units... (ie larger)
i also like the unit cap... a game without micro is kinda boring in the end.
EDIT: many other games have unit speed as well as clumping...total annihilation-style games were notorious for making things clumped...(e.g. when units die they leave a metal corpse which block the way of the units behind XD)
the more units a game allows...the worse it is for competitive sports (because units are just too much to look at)..but variety and depth of each unit is a big plus 
so it's not necessarily splitting micro...it's just that there's way too many marines...and either blizz implements a command like "split" on the panel that has "attack-move" and "patrol" or somehow reduce the number of marines needed (which would be cool but probably won't happen)
too bad for marines who wish to be templars...marine+marine = mariarchon? marchon? marnon?
if marine count can be reduced...then cool units like archons and ultralisks would actually mean something other than as FF breakers...
|
On May 19 2011 15:07 Alizee- wrote:
Imagine ghosts and templar having to do more than just spam one click area instead of aiming at multiple locations. Ut oh..skill ceiling. I always knew clumping was a problem, but didn't really know a good solution to recommend. Now that it is here, this issue really needs to be pushed and people need to stop beating around the bush that it will make the game better in significantly more ways than clump units do.
That's another good point. Currently all you have to do between spams of spells is just slightly move your mouse to one side and you'll get a good coverage of an entire army. With this it'd take a lot more aiming of spells in which areas of the screen you want it to go to get the maximum amount of units hit, rather than knowing for sure you're gonna cover his entire army regardless.
I really hope people keep pushing this change, it's something that can only be good for the game.
|
On May 19 2011 17:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I'd also rather a fun imbalanced game, than a boring balanced game.
No you wouldn't lol, what do you hear more of? Complaining about balance, or complaining about the lack of fun the games present?
|
On May 21 2011 12:11 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 17:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I'd also rather a fun imbalanced game, than a boring balanced game. No you wouldn't lol, what do you hear more of? Complaining about balance, or complaining about the lack of fun the games present?
Well most people do complain about balance, but I bet there are plenty of people that would make the case SC2 is isn't as fun as it could be. There just isn't a lot of discussion about that though.
|
On May 21 2011 12:37 chainheart wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 12:11 Ryder. wrote:On May 19 2011 17:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I'd also rather a fun imbalanced game, than a boring balanced game. No you wouldn't lol, what do you hear more of? Complaining about balance, or complaining about the lack of fun the games present? Well most people do complain about balance, but I bet there are plenty of people that would make the case SC2 is isn't as fun as it could be. There just isn't a lot of discussion about that though.
definitely not as fun as it could be. It's become sorta dull. And when I watch pros, it feels like i'm watching regular diamond players play. I know they're way better but you can't really tell visually without opening up tabs. There is no care as to how an army is spread. Everyones ballin.
|
Loved the article. I truly support this! Would be amazing if Blizzard cared enough about esports and the spectators to make this drastic change to the game. Read it while listening to SotG. High Thread represent.
|
I think it might be cool, but I honestly think some units would need to be reworked. A siege tank dealing 35 damage to a light unit under this paradigm would just seem, well, useless. I'm sure there are other examples, but this is the first to come to mind.
|
This change will make game look more "natural" I think. Maybe it seems so because I used to play BW and the way units moved in BW is considered to be "natural" and "true" for me now. Anyway I think this change is the key to longer, massive battles without unbeatable "blobs" - that would be the turning point of SC2.
To those people who say this change is impossible due to eventual need in rebalancing the game again: consider the fact that Blizzard is going to add new units for each race with upcoming addon and new units will surely affect overall balance that will require to be fixed over and over again.
So, why not make such a big and crucial change taking into account that SC2 a young game and is being constantly developed = evolving: new units + new movement mechanics -> new balance -> better game?
Noone can image how the game is going to look after (HoS + 1,5 years of pathes) + (LoV + 1,5 years of pathes). Its going to be 2015 or 2016 when we see the final game.
I support!
|
This is awesome. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already but another massive effect this has is that an army in a great defensive position suddenly becomes a lot stronger which means players could not only afford to split their units up, but they would be severely disadvantaged for not doing so.
|
|
|
that is going to affect too many things I suppose, especially point 3.
being less "bulked up" for example would give lings a much better surround of most units.
reducing splash damage would greatly reduce the power of siege tanks and banelings and all other AoE dmg dealer.
Not saying it cannot be done but it will need a huge amount of balance to fix that
but that being said, some units, especially ultralisks, need a better pathing.
|
On May 22 2011 03:51 ETisME wrote:
that is going to affect too many things I suppose, especially point 3.
being less "bulked up" for example would give lings a much better surround of most units.
reducing splash damage would greatly reduce the power of siege tanks and banelings and all other AoE dmg dealer.
Not saying it cannot be done but it will need a huge amount of balance to fix that
but that being said, some units, especially ultralisks, need a better pathing.
Tweaking the splash radius of units and other things like that are such a simple balance tweak though, it's not like that's the main reason deterring them from doing this.
On May 21 2011 20:31 althaz wrote:
This is awesome. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already but another massive effect this has is that an army in a great defensive position suddenly becomes a lot stronger which means players could not only afford to split their units up, but they would be severely disadvantaged for not doing so.
Exactly. Think how many more battles you see going on all over the map in a standard BW match compared to SC2. It's so much more exciting to see, and the fact that a player can defend positions and engage armies without his entire army is the key reason as to why it's allowed to happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
