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On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise.
You really think the people on SOTG would agree with this? This is something to distinguish pros from noobs. Unit spreading. As the post "The elephant in the room" pointed out, pros are really really bad. Thye make mistakes like not microing 3 drops well harassint a protoss deathball that must defend the front. Pros need to get better, and since jaedong is a real person, eventually itmwill be possible for a pro to split hisunits on demand all the time. Its like ultimate marine splittingnall the time. This thread is worse than a balance discussion, its a mechanics disucussion. How much theorycraft do we get..
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On May 19 2011 12:44 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise. You really think the people on SOTG would agree with this? This is something to distinguish pros from noobs. Unit spreading. As the post "The elephant in the room" pointed out, pros are really really bad. Thye make mistakes like not microing 3 drops well harassint a protoss deathball that must defend the front. Pros need to get better, and since jaedong is a real person, eventually itmwill be possible for a pro to split hisunits on demand all the time. Its like ultimate marine splittingnall the time. This thread is worse than a balance discussion, its a mechanics disucussion. How much theorycraft do we get..
You are misunderstanding the implication of dynamic unit movement. Your units will be spread out and you have work to get them into a closer formation. That is the right way of looking at it and the intention isnt to make the Terrans life easier against Banelings, but rather to prevent "tight deathballs" from being too automatic because the units drift apart when they are moving.
Tight balls of units simply have too high dps and pose a problem for balancing. This could help with balancing AND it would make the game look more natural.
It is also not true that it would remove micro, because it would just switch it from "micro to split" to "micro to a dense attack formation". The first is only needed against Banelings, but the second is needed for EVERYTHING, so it would require even more micro. Area attacks could simply be adjusted to have the same effect as they are having now on the spread out units and thus they would be even more dangerous on tighter balls of units ... which is a good thing. At least Siege Tanks and Psi Storm seem less than imposing right now ...
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Possibly its already been mentioned, but the biggest change I notice is the change in the position of the Ultras from the back of the pack to the front. The inability of large units like ultras to get in range would probably be helped quite a bit by this.
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I'm concerned with the overall mentality to the younger, more naive sc2 community. The simple notion that the game is great and its the players who aren't executing well enough mechanically as the issue is unreal.
Micro often is so simplified and battles end so quickly because add in some splash and high dps and giant balls of units just die. When you have a battle spreading 2 screen lengths and have to control so many more units effectively its far more mechanically demanding.
To put it in perspective: I am getting attack, I drag select everything and pull back to avoid a storm then a-move forward to win. That's just a poor, simplified, newbie friendly design. Compare that to where your units are all over and you have to rely on your own intervention to increase effective dps now you have a higher skill ceiling.
If you wanna convince me unit spread similar to bw would be frowned upon by the likes of nony, day9, and incontrol in favour of the blob format seen currently you're smokin somethin. In fact, I'd say that's reason enough to bring the issue up on the show because your insinuation that clumped up units are in some way better and that people, especially pros, would never want to let go of such a mechanic because people just need to play better is really just short sighted.
Watch replays, the bulk of most peoples' armies is one ctrl group. So while I can agree people can always get better, its a combination of people needing to get better AND poor game design that leave improvement on both ends of the spectrum. I don't care if people can get good enough to split perfectly because it still doesn't change the fact that the current design is poor and poorly implemented.
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On May 19 2011 12:44 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise. You really think the people on SOTG would agree with this?
I'd think so yeah. Or at the very least they can discuss the pros and cons of it in a civil, intelligent manner rather than the way most of this thread is going with people arguing against it with the uninformed reasons of "Its not BW stop being nostalgic!!!" or "there's way more skill involved to split units when they ball up!!!"
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On May 19 2011 13:31 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:44 Bippzy wrote:On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise. You really think the people on SOTG would agree with this? I'd think so yeah. Or at the very least they can discuss the pros and cons of it in a civil, intelligent manner rather than the way most of this thread is going with people arguing against it with the uninformed reasons of "Its not BW stop being nostalgic!!!" or "there's way more skill involved to split units when they ball up!!!"
Unfortunately I'm more skeptical of that. As much as I'd like for the notable TL names to propose this change, I imagine that instead most of them would refuse under the notion of "SC2 is too young", and "It took BW 10 years blahblahblah" and all the usual flawed arguments we get when SC2 is portrayed as anything other than absolute perfection from us "evil BW elitists". I'd love to be wrong and all, but I'm not too optimistic.
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I personally hate the dynamic movement PURELY because it makes ghost EMPing nearly impossible if the ghost is in the blob of your army.
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On May 19 2011 13:38 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 13:31 Angra wrote:On May 19 2011 12:44 Bippzy wrote:On May 19 2011 12:31 Alizee- wrote:
If everyone makes enough noise about this I can very easily see this being implemented. Get big names on board, get it discussed in state of the game/inside the game and I bet it can happen quite easily. Its far from an impossible change and HotS isn't that far off.
Just make more noise. You really think the people on SOTG would agree with this? I'd think so yeah. Or at the very least they can discuss the pros and cons of it in a civil, intelligent manner rather than the way most of this thread is going with people arguing against it with the uninformed reasons of "Its not BW stop being nostalgic!!!" or "there's way more skill involved to split units when they ball up!!!" Unfortunately I'm more skeptical of that. As much as I'd like for the notable TL names to propose this change, I imagine that instead most of them would refuse under the notion of "SC2 is too young", and "It took BW 10 years blahblahblah" and all the usual flawed arguments we get when SC2 is portrayed as anything other than absolute perfection from us "evil BW elitists". I'd love to be wrong and all, but I'm not too optimistic.
From most SC2 shows I'm sure that would definitely be the response, since nobody in the scene wants to cast SC2 in a negative light for fear of looking bad themselves. HOWEVER, if anyone would get behind this idea at all I think SotG would be the best chance because they are definitely the most unfiltered when it comes to talking about what they think is good and bad about the game and the scene. Not entirely sure but who knows, here's hoping.
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On May 19 2011 13:41 GoKu` wrote:
I personally hate the dynamic movement PURELY because it makes ghost EMPing nearly impossible if the ghost is in the blob of your army.
It also makes the templar you are EMPing a lot harder to use....
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On May 19 2011 14:11 brownthing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 13:41 GoKu` wrote:
I personally hate the dynamic movement PURELY because it makes ghost EMPing nearly impossible if the ghost is in the blob of your army. It also makes the templar you are EMPing a lot harder to use....
Hasnt it been stated enough times already that a change to SC2 to include this would REQUIRE an adjustment to all area effects? I mean c'mon, how hard is it to come to that conclusion?
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I've been complaining about this since the first time I've played sc2. It just seems so unnatural to me. Just look at those pictures with the units spread out, they look so much more natural and cooler. Really hope blizzard looks into this and possibly implement a change.
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Just a thought I had the other day:
Because of the auto-ball pathing, the race with the most powerful AoE will always have the most powerful 200/200 army. Think about it: why is the Colossus so good? Units just align themselves naturally with its splash radius. Same with HTs. That's why toss is so good late game. Same thing to a lesser extent with terran Siege Tanks and vP Ghosts work the same way. Their damage is always maximized because units just like to cluster up so much. That's also why zerg seems so much weaker: they don't really have a dominant AoE unit so they can't exploit the game's natural mechanics for army positioning as much.
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I'll throw my chips down with this as well. of everything that is different between SC2 and BW, this is the one thing I most want reverted. The tight deathballs are horrible on every level.
- Viewers get less of a show, this is the main thing keeping BW way ahead of SC2 in terms of a spectator sport.
- Aoe has been nerfed so it is no longer the spectacle it was in BW when an AOE cleared out a pack of units
- less micro needed overall to achiev perfect firing arcs, meaning perfect arcs are then required for a fight. With dynamic movement there is a LOT larger range of possible unit effectiveness due to positioning.
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On May 19 2011 09:11 Brief.Starcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:14 Rococo wrote:
The thing is that SC2's movement algorithms were designed with ease of use in mind, not pro level play or the spectator experience. And at making a Starcraft that's less frustrating to play than the original, Blizzard was successful. Perhaps there will be tweaks in the right direction, but a complete reversion back to the old way is doubtful just because accessibility will always be a primary design goal for Blizzard. We aren't going back to the old, Brood War, way. Units will still be easy to control and not run around in random directions, they'll just spread out more naturally because they'll see each other. Currently, units just run one another over. Quite rude if you ask me.
On May 19 2011 07:14 Rococo wrote:
It's hard to see balance implications as a legitimate reason not to do something when non-trivial balance changes are attached to each patch and two expansions are on the way. Blizzard doesn't see SC2's balance state as calcified, and if they decided that an overhaul to unit pathing would improve the game, they'd package it in with HOTS and spend a long open beta rebalancing each and every unit as needed.
The thing is that SC2's movement algorithms were designed with ease of use in mind, not pro level play or the spectator experience. And at making a Starcraft that's less frustrating to play than the original, Blizzard was successful. Perhaps there will be tweaks in the right direction, but a complete reversion back to the old way is doubtful just because accessibility will always be a primary design goal for Blizzard.
(As an aside, I've always wondered if the current AI was first made for zerglings specifically and then applied to everything. Zergling swarms move rather beautifully in Starcraft 2 given their speed and numbers, like schools of fish. And from both a design and flavor standpoint it makes sense for groups of zerglings to behave like one unit. But applied to entire armies with diverse compositions it's a bit of a mess visually and micro often feels like trying to dig a hole in loose sand.)
ETC ETC ETC
HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS NEED TO BE SAID! UNITS WON'T GET STUCK LIKE IN BW NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE OF STEERING BEHAVIOUR!
![[image loading]](http://file.steamdc.com/img/starcraft/lings_path.gif)
However you will still have the pros of unit spreading. No unit will ever behave like large units in starcraft that glitched out because of how big they were e.g Tank, Dragoon, Goliath.
THIS TYPE OF MOVEMENT HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN OTHER GAMES (E.G COMPANY OF HEROES HAS PERFECT NAVIGATION WITH NATURAL PATHING)
Blizzard simply did their movement AI very poorly. Obviously we don't want it exactly like CoH because you can only control squads, but in between what is in CoH and BW.
![[image loading]](http://media.gamedaily.com/games/company-of-heroes/pc/tn_565_1.jpg)
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On May 19 2011 14:11 brownthing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 13:41 GoKu` wrote:
I personally hate the dynamic movement PURELY because it makes ghost EMPing nearly impossible if the ghost is in the blob of your army. It also makes the templar you are EMPing a lot harder to use....
Templar stay in the back and therefore are protected by your army, your ghost have to be in the front (not protected by your army lol) It just makes things really hard to emp and still keep your ghost alive because they are very easy to snipe off after a emp
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I wish I had enough BW/SC2 experience to understand how much this changes gameplay and what all it would effect, but it certainly looks promising and I think it would improve spectating as well. I would like to see this tried out more and hear some SotG opinions on this.
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I also really want to see SotG touch on this. Would be interesting to hear their opinions, for sure.
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I would love to hear the intent from blizzard not implementing this from the beginning.
While I would love to see this change, I'm going to have to agree that its going to be difficult to implement, seeing as the -entire- game would have to be readjusted.
But still.. HOTS blizzard! its not too late!
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Imagine ghosts and templar having to do more than just spam one click area instead of aiming at multiple locations. Ut oh..skill ceiling. I always knew clumping was a problem, but didn't really know a good solution to recommend. Now that it is here, this issue really needs to be pushed and people need to stop beating around the bush that it will make the game better in significantly more ways than clump units do.
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On May 19 2011 14:58 Brief.Starcraft wrote:
I also really want to see SotG touch on this. Would be interesting to hear their opinions, for sure.
I just emailed SotG about this. Honestly I think it would be one of the BEST things for sc2 and I really want to get blizzard's attention about this one. It's not too late to make this change. All we need is publicity and getting some attention and this CAN happen.
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EPT
