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On May 05 2011 22:59 zende wrote:
I like how you define cheese. "Believe it or not, those are the only things that are cheese!".
Why is that? It's because you think so, right?
getting pissed off when someone says a 10 pool is a completely legit build in 2v2?
your missing his point. 2v2 is just a whole new game to 1v1, dont get bogged down in another OMG YOU DONT DEFINE CHEESE LIKE ME argument ;/
2v2 is fine, the maps are horrible, but as a game type its a lot of fun
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What about the one player leaving exactly when the game starts so the zerg can do a super fast pool and rush with zerglings? that is not a nice mechanic.
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I'm top 1 in 2v2, and think it's retarded. Why do I play enough to be top 1 if its retarded? Well, you barely have to play, you just have to have to know the basics of 1v1 and there's no problem at all.
The fact that games never take very long helps. Literally 100% of games involve cheese from the opponents. As a 1v1 player, I find that a bit boring and play standard (12 gate, 14 gas-pool, 3 gate, 1 gate robo, whatever). It's not difficult to defend most cheeses by playing standard (and you can alter your build if you scout something extreme like double 6 pool). The fact that even at the top of the 2v2 ladder players hardly even try to micro makes it easier. However, here's the thing: if you defend the cheese, you win the game. There's no reasonable followup to these cheese openings, and I don't think I've ever come remotely close to losing after defending a cheese. Indeed, that's what makes it a cheese. "Hopefully, the opponent won't be prepared and we'll win right here right now!" says the opponent. That's cheese, or at the very least all-in.
The only reason your games are going to macro games is because you both cheese. But if 2 players 6pool each other in 1v1, it's still cheese, no?
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On May 05 2011 23:20 Musketeer wrote:
I'm top 1 in 2v2, and think it's retarded. Why do I play enough to be top 1 if its retarded? Well, you barely have to play, you just have to have to know the basics of 1v1 and there's no problem at all.
The fact that games never take very long helps. Literally 100% of games involve cheese from the opponents.
after seeing the success of actionjesus you could argue that a lot of "pros" should take some lessons in 2v2 so they can learn to fail less 
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Omg people on the first page. Please read between the lines! Yes he said cheese, Yes I thought that opener was a bit misplaced maybe but it fits with his general outline.
Hardcore all in risky cheese with a negative look on it, is more what he meant with the first ones.
But I think his point is not redefining the definition of cheese. It's about showing that you can accept a wider range of strong strategies to be valid and just embracing them.
Another way to look at it would be, 2v2 is not just short cheesy games, there is a lot more to it.
What I liked the most was the part with the fungal on muta and stim in. WTF!! lol that's so powerful. I love those things. I love it when people find strong tactics and try to abuse them mercilessly. It allows the gameplay to develop.
So with that I'll just finish and say you have definitely added more excitement for me to watch some 2v2's in the EG Masters Cup. Can't wait 
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Good overview of 2v2 from the OP.
The transition from the early-game aggression to the mid-game is what seperates the men from the boys.
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Figured I'd post since I'm 770 points 2v2 RT, which was top 25 in the world when I was playing last weekend. Some comments;
1. Cheese - Agreed with OP. I define it as pretty much any no gas build or a build where the moment your push fails it's all over because you're so far behind economically, production facility, or tech-wise. You see this a lot where a team goes early speedling, pulls gas, and their partner goes something like 3-4 rax no gas. Once you get stalkers or siege or anything to stop the push, its GG and the opposing team usually just leaves when their push fails.
2. Protoss - Couldn't agree more. I played about 1500 2v2 games in beta as Terran, switched to Protoss for Season 1, and by the end of season 1 had to switch back because Protoss is so incredibly UP in teams. 10 pools kill about (estimate) 50% of my toss teamates within 5 minutes. Either they are too greedy and 13-14 gate, or they don't know how to wall, or they don't know how to scout a rush, or they don't know how to defend lings with probes. Compared to how simple a 10p is for Zerg, Protoss is at an astronomical disadvantage in teams during the first 6-7 minutes on almost all maps. This is further evidenced by the fact that the highest ranked Protoss 2v2 RT player worldwide is ranked #25 with an abysmal win rate and the next protoss after him is #58.
3. Limited strategies - By biggest gripe about 2v2 is the limitation on strategies. OP mentions how ling/hellion is "old" and "counterable" but it's really not. I don't consider it a legit strategy to have to assume hellions and blindly go roaches. Even when people attempt this they still do not come out with a significant win rate vs hellion/ling and the reason is three fold. 1. Maps that separate teamates allow you to divide and conquer, forcing out an exposed player to help his teamate, and then surrounding/killing them. 2. The damage that hellions (esp blue flame) do to workers means you can suicide your hellions and almost always be on the positive side of cost effectiveness. 3. Mass lings can soft counter roaches, especially in the very early game.
4. Lastly, aggression is King in teams. The team that puts on pressure usually ends up winning. The stress reduces the opponent's macro, and there are many tech paths that will allow you to bypass static defense in tier 2. Personally, as a main Terran I always go for drops on any team that turtles up. Zergs expo/muta, and Protoss dominates if they can get to collosi.
I like 2v2 a lot, but unfortunately it's not "balanced" so it's hard to derive any conclusions of skill based on it.
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On May 05 2011 23:09 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 22:59 zende wrote:
I like how you define cheese. "Believe it or not, those are the only things that are cheese!".
Why is that? It's because you think so, right?
getting pissed off when someone says a 10 pool is a completely legit build in 2v2? your missing his point. 2v2 is just a whole new game to 1v1, dont get bogged down in another OMG YOU DONT DEFINE CHEESE LIKE ME argument ;/ 2v2 is fine, the maps are horrible, but as a game type its a lot of fun
All I'm saying is the way he defines cheese is as if he's some kind of guru that decides what's cheese and what's not. Basically there is no definition of cheese, it's all personal. Also he talks about it like it really would matter if it'd be a 8 or 9 pool since, man, you don't want to cheese do you? That'd be so embarrassing.
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Forget the "definitions of cheese" in the OP and read between the lines. Whatever you think is cheese in 1v1 is actually not cheese in 2v2 because the game plays out very differently.
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Thank you very much for this clarification. There is nothing more annoying that having to beat sense into idiots on the forums who complain about everything is cheese.
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The term "cheese" is a corruption of "cheaters". Started out from people calling cheesing players "cheaters" in the early days of SC in Korea, which slowly changed into cheese.
Thus, basically, any early allin play can be considered cheese.
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I don't mind the 'cheese' in 2v2 but the 2v2 map pool is quite possibly the worst thing in the world.
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On May 05 2011 12:57 -orb- wrote:
So if i bring 94% of my probes it's not cheese right?
Good to know, thanks, I'll use this in EG's league with 2v2s and make sure to tell my opponents it's not cheese cause I didn't bring over 95% of my probes
Way to be a fag about it without even realizing the tought process and effort he put into this post. Maybe now that you are so smart you can go find out why people don't respect you as a pro player or a player in general to be honest.
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Yeah, forgot that though. Well written and well thought out, I guess I just got distracted by the whole cheese-defining thing. Creds to you man!
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all i know about 2v2 is that it is one of the quickest way to get heart attack - just pick zerg and go try a 2v2 RT.
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On May 05 2011 23:20 Musketeer wrote:
I'm top 1 in 2v2, and think it's retarded. Why do I play enough to be top 1 if its retarded? Well, you barely have to play, you just have to have to know the basics of 1v1 and there's no problem at all.
The fact that games never take very long helps. Literally 100% of games involve cheese from the opponents. As a 1v1 player, I find that a bit boring and play standard (12 gate, 14 gas-pool, 3 gate, 1 gate robo, whatever). It's not difficult to defend most cheeses by playing standard (and you can alter your build if you scout something extreme like double 6 pool). The fact that even at the top of the 2v2 ladder players hardly even try to micro makes it easier. However, here's the thing: if you defend the cheese, you win the game. There's no reasonable followup to these cheese openings, and I don't think I've ever come remotely close to losing after defending a cheese. Indeed, that's what makes it a cheese. "Hopefully, the opponent won't be prepared and we'll win right here right now!" says the opponent. That's cheese, or at the very least all-in.
The only reason your games are going to macro games is because you both cheese. But if 2 players 6pool each other in 1v1, it's still cheese, no?
I think this post is hilarious, "I am number 1 2v2 player because I play standard and defend cheeses"
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Look regardless of your definition of cheese, which seems to be the whole point of this thread...
People are mad because 2v2 is basically 2 players with a risky/all-in one base build can often beat a team that has better mechanics, micro, macro, build orders, etc.
And the only reason it works is because it creates a 2v1 situation that is essentially unscoutable.
Take for example, 4gate zealot warp/zerglings with overlord scout in a PZ team vs PT. I scout this, and it looks like a 4gate. Zerg can even 15hatch or pool/gas expand, which looks like an eco build.
And then at 5:30 You have a pack of zerglings at your base and 4 zealots warping in to your home. Even if you can fend them off, all your probes are likely dead. Sure you could try to kill the pylon but zerg has map control so moving out will just result in your shit dying. Even if you wall off with a forge/cannon, they can just go after your teammate.
(Which is why most of the blizzard 2v2 map pool is terrible)
Okay so a decent counter to this is something like terran goes gas before barracks into hellions. But that is pretty much auto-lose to a 5rr / zealot push. Given that chrono'd zealots off of 2gate core are going to be scoutable.
There is a difference between doing a risky build hoping you can do damage and stay even, versus doing a standard build and going all-in after you've scouted a vulnerability.
Anyway the problem with 2v2's is shitty maps. A shared choke with the bases nearby eachother is pretty much mandatory. Basically players need to be able to get to their ally without passing through uncontrolled space, and they need to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time. This only applies to one-base play.
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On May 06 2011 01:25 DuneBug wrote:
Look regardless of your definition of cheese, which seems to be the whole point of this thread...
People are mad because 2v2 is basically 2 players with a risky/all-in one base build can often beat a team that has better mechanics, micro, macro, build orders, etc.
And the only reason it works is because it creates a 2v1 situation that is essentially unscoutable.
Take for example, 4gate zealot warp/zerglings with overlord scout in a PZ team vs PT. I scout this, and it looks like a 4gate. Zerg can even 15hatch or pool/gas expand, which looks like an eco build.
And then at 5:30 You have a pack of zerglings at your base and 4 zealots warping in to your home. Even if you can fend them off, all your probes are likely dead. Sure you could try to kill the pylon but zerg has map control so moving out will just result in your shit dying. Even if you wall off with a forge/cannon, they can just go after your teammate.
(Which is why most of the blizzard 2v2 map pool is terrible)
Okay so a decent counter to this is something like terran goes gas before barracks into hellions. But that is pretty much auto-lose to a 5rr / zealot push. GIven that chrono'd zealots off of 2gate core are going to be scoutable.
You realize you can spot an upper warp in by looking for if a Protoss is stacking energy on his nexus right? Also, if they don't 10p in that situation, your T partner should send his first marine out on the obvious overlord path to kill it before it gets in position.
Even if you don't do any of that, a bunker near the outter pylon or half your troops near it and a couple at the wall to kill lings also counters it.
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Hey, good effort put into your post. However, keep in mind that no matter what, this game is balanced around 1v1. Sure, they've made some changes to accomodate 2v2 games, but they've only done that to make sure its not unplayable. Therefore, your probably right, there are certain playstyles that better suit team games, but 1v1 skills do not transfer over (see SOTG). It's hard for people to take 2v2 seriously when in the back of your mind (after you die to helion-speedling as toss for example) you know that 2v2 isn't the balance panel's main priority at all.
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It's not ALL cheese of course (although mostly it is because there's no follow up)... but what it is, is totally tier 1 play and basically just a micro battle. What level are you even at that games move into macro games? Cause at the highest level of 2v2, they don't move into a macro game, unless 1 team is already way ahead. There's no reason to ever risk teching or expanding unless you're ahead and going to win anyway.
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EPT
