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2v2 and why it isn't Cheese

Forum Index > SC2 General
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PowerDes
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 19:18:10
May 05 2011 03:52 GMT
#1
Introduction

I've been playing team games since the beta, and I believe all this hate on cheese is because people haven't played enough 2v2s to understand the mechanics. For people who play both 1v1 and 2v2 recognize that 2v2 is just another build order. I'm going to explain why 95% of 2v2s are not cheese.

(Images in this thread are linked if they do not completely show up just click on the image)

Exactly what is cheese?

I've heard numerous definitions of cheese. People consider cheese something that is easy to beat when scouted and difficult to beat when not scouted. I'll go through some examples about what is cheese/all-in and what isn't.

- Any pool between 6-8 is cheese. You are skipping gas and you need to damage or you will be far behind.
- Any Proxy that involves you moving your worker outside your base before you have 12 supply with the intention of doing damage.

[image loading]
Hurr!

- Any attack that involves bringing over 95% (some exaggeration) of your workers into battle outside of your base. (not applicable if you somehow chased and army outside of your base after pulling workers)

Believe it or not, those are the only three conditions that apply to cheese. Here are some examples that people think are cheese:

- 10pool, which most lower level players recognize as a 6 pool even though the lings have speed and continual waves are coming.
- Hellion Ling, This strategy is now actually pretty old. People are learning how to defend against it. Zergs know that they can hold off a 10pool with a spine crawler then teching straight to roaches (and getting them before the hellions show up)
- 4 gate, the most common build protoss uses in 2v2s. It helps them stay alive, and gives them the ability to generate aggression.

None of these builds are designed to kill. 10pool gives map control, allowing the terran to get hellions out or a protoss to 4gate without building any units, which is essentially sacrificing economy in order to buy time. This brings me to the teamwork factor.

The Teamwork Factor

Teamwork and communication is huge at upper levels of AT and even RT. The first part is knowing what your ally is doing and being able to assist in helping him or her do it. For example, Hellion Ling required the zerg to build lings early so the terran can build a barracks, reactor, and factory without building a single marine first.

Helping your ally wall off, sharing resources, sharing control are all part of teamwork. When your ally is dead that doesn't mean he can't control your units. This is a big thing. You can macro while a single banshee, dark templars, drops, zerglings are being perfectly micro'd around the map, doing guaranteed damage.

When someone thinks they have been cheesed, a lot of the time it is because they are getting 2v1'd. This is usually when someone suffers from an early push involving marines, zealots, or zerglings. As a player begins to play more 2v2s, the player learns that they can defend against these rushes 1v2. Photon cannons, bunkers, cutting probes to chrono out a zealot or stalker, early spine crawler always assist in holding for a little while. (Eventually if the opponents mass up and then you get 2v1'd, you can blame your ally for not helping.)

Spells/Combos
Everyone knows what happens when you combine two races together or even the same race. You can get to one point faster. Terran can get both stim and medivacs at the same time if both players choose to tech a different direction, Protoss can get both voids and colossus, zerg can get hydralisks and roaches.

[image loading]
Those marines would've never been able to hit those speedy mutas without that fungal.


Macro Games

Believe it or not, macro games are a huge factor in 2v2s. You see those people on the top 100 of 2v2 with high win rates? (keke) That's macro talking. Without macro, you cannot deal with people who can defend against your so called "all-ins" or "cheeses". About 80% of my games move into macro games. Either the opponents defend our early rush or we defend theirs, both teams are forced into a macro scenario. Mass is a huge part of starcraft 2. Having a bigger army is a good thing.

[image loading]
Would you believe this game started with 6 pools?


I guarantee you that people who are doing the exact same thing every game (Examples include double 6 pools, korean 5 gate speedling, double zealot proxy, etc.) are not winning 85% of their games. This is because the strategy they are doing is not stable. That is because you find stability when you can have a safe opening and still be able to transition into a macro game without dying.

Being able to keep yourself from being supply blocked, everything that you see in those long 1v1 games all apply to 2v2. If you want to stay ahead and win most of your games, you need to learn how to macro and not just how to execute early aggression.

Micro and unit control

Micro is huge in team games. Keeping your units alive and getting the most value out of them is crucial. Believe it or not, a 2 rax opener can hold a 2 gate proxy easily. Some marine kiting and maybe a few SCVs pulled will be enough to keep you alive. Micro keeps you alive against unscouted early aggression and helps you get the most out of your units.

Micro in larger battles is crucial too. Fungal growths, forcefields, EMPs all apply. Focus firing down a baneling could save all your partner's lings.

[image loading]
Trapped!


The only way to practice micro is to micro. You have to make the most out of your units. This isn't cheese acting against you, it's just in-game mechanics.

Conclusion

The only way to get past all the cheese is to experience it firsthand. Then you start to realize you can actually defend against it even if two players are at your door trying to baneling bust it down. You should realize this isn't solo, you can cut workers in order to stay alive. (I am 100% certain it is beneficial to stay alive) You have to play in order to get good. That is just what practice is. Complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, and you know it.

Resources

http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/master/2
Sc2ranks has a great replay system, go click on anyone in the top 100 of 2v2 and I guarantee you they have games posted with openings that you can experiment with.

http://justin.tv/hackprotech
#1 RT and AT. You know you can learn from someone when they play against Arranged Teams while playing RT and still manage to win some games without a coordinated plan with ally.

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/deltamal
Player that picks protoss in team games. (which is kind of a big deal, I would consider protoss "underpowered" because you pretty much can't reinforce forces quickly until warpgates are done. (unless you proxied)).

http://www.youtube.com/iriestarcraft
The only commentator on youtube that does competitive team games. Its actually harder to cast team games, especially when the game stretches out and multiple attacks are happening at once.

Not many people stream 2v2 -_-;;

twitch.tv/PowerDes
Argolis
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada211 Posts
May 05 2011 03:54 GMT
#2
it's still cheese bro

User was warned for this post
tok
Profile Joined April 2010
United States691 Posts
May 05 2011 03:57 GMT
#3
On May 05 2011 12:54 Argolis wrote:
it's still cheese bro

Did you even read what he said.
It's obviously a different game, he's just telling people to prepare to early aggression and to stop complaining, which they should do.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 04:00:53
May 05 2011 03:57 GMT
#4
So if i bring 94% of my probes it's not cheese right?

Good to know, thanks, I'll use this in EG's league with 2v2s and make sure to tell my opponents it's not cheese cause I didn't bring over 95% of my probes
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
SirMilford
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1269 Posts
May 05 2011 03:59 GMT
#5
I have to agree with all these points. Occasionally you get cheesed in 2v2 but most of the time it is more of an "early aggression" which feels like cheese because you simply are not prepared
NoobStyles
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Australia257 Posts
May 05 2011 04:00 GMT
#6
Well said,


Conclusion

The only way to get past all the cheese is to experience it firsthand. Then you start to realize you can actually defend against it even if two players are at your door trying to baneling bust it down. You should realize this isn't solo, you can cut workers in order to stay alive. (I am 100% certain it is beneficial to stay alive) You have to play in order to get good. That is just what practice is. Complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, and you know it.



This is particular is very true and IMO by far the most important part of the article
Special Endrey
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1929 Posts
May 05 2011 04:03 GMT
#7
too many people have no idea how different 2v2 from 1v1 is and therefor they dont know what the difference of 1v1 / 2v2 cheese is. what people consider cheese in 1v1 might be cheese in 1v1 but not in 2v2 -
This signature is ruining eSports - -Twitter: @SpecialEndrey
Tetragon
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada46 Posts
May 05 2011 04:03 GMT
#8
Very good writeup. Im no too sure why it matters if something is considered cheese or not, but you did a great job of summing it up.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=spectrum
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
May 05 2011 04:05 GMT
#9
I love 2v2 but i hate playing teams that pool resources. IMO it borderline breaks the game because scouting is already difficult enough in the matchup. has anyone figured out what a are good tells that someone is feeding and how are you supposed to prepare for things like mass mutalisk with gas pooled on the player even if it does get scouted?
SaLaYa
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States363 Posts
May 05 2011 04:05 GMT
#10
On May 05 2011 12:54 Argolis wrote:
it's still cheese bro

User was warned for this post


Real constructive.

Ontop: OP is right, 2v2 game is completely different from 1v1. You need to open with a early pressure/"Cheese" build to stay alive and transition.
Cornell 2014 // eYe_am_SaSsY
JerKy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)3013 Posts
May 05 2011 04:08 GMT
#11
Well, it's not a "cheese" in the 1v1 sense
Like 6 pooling is still a cheese-like play, but in team games, it's considered "standard"
(I hope that made sense, I'm not trying to troll)
You can type "StarCraft" with just your left hand.
Juddas
Profile Joined January 2011
768 Posts
May 05 2011 04:08 GMT
#12
These are all very interesting points, esp. after 2v2 week. Although I must say I still feel double six pool is not ok in any regards.

My favorite aspect of 2v2 is one of the points you mentioned above, which is the teamwork factor. It becomes really easy to tech to ultras when my protoss buddy is defensive 6 gating because I am dumping to him until we acquire the greatest deathball of all time: Stalker ultra collossus void brood and some chargelots for good measure.

IMO 2v2 can have the most entertaining games to say the least
kamui8899
Profile Joined September 2010
81 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 04:13:30
May 05 2011 04:09 GMT
#13
-deleted-
exalted
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States3612 Posts
May 05 2011 04:11 GMT
#14
Thanks for the arbitrary definition of cheese, fatty.
too easy
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
May 05 2011 04:11 GMT
#15
People pretty much don't understand the difference between 2v2 and 1v1 and claim 2v2 is inferior because it's "just cheese".

2v2 is much more aggressively focused than 1v1, and it should be obvious when you realize 12-pool is a "relatively economic" build rather than an aggressive build >.<
Exhale-
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada103 Posts
May 05 2011 04:14 GMT
#16
As me and my brother figured out after playing like 10 team games, you can't do eco oriented play in 2s. You will most likely always lose if the other team went for an aggressive style build and has a double digit iq. 2s can be epic long games (30-40 minute 4-5 base twilight fortress games anyone?) but they almost always start out as 1 base aggression vs other 1 base aggression. Once you learn that, 2s are actually really fun.
gogo Mvp!!
Fritts
Profile Joined August 2008
Canada63 Posts
May 05 2011 04:25 GMT
#17
Good thread

Recently I've been playing a bit of 2v2 and having a blast. 2v2 in SC2 is more fun as a zerg than it was in BW since you have a lot more early options than just mass speedling into muta; being able to share resources and control is also a huge plus. Figuring out the best openers with your partner in the 6 or 7 different match-ups is great fun. I recommend everyone to give it a serious chance, just don't get mad when you lose, it's easy to lose if you and your partner don't have a solid game-plan yet.
Nicholai
Profile Joined November 2010
15 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 04:29:51
May 05 2011 04:27 GMT
#18

This thread seems a little ridiculous. OP seems to be arguing semantics... Cheese to most players is any "all-in" build. At least that's what it is to me. Again semantics so arguing against MY definition of cheese makes no sense... If you all-in i.e. 4gate with mass ling pressure (No drones and no tech path for toss), to me that's cheese.


The OP's point is that 4gate with mass ling pressure isn't all-in for 2v2. This is because unless the opponents have to cut their own economy to hold it off. It can't be held off with "standard" 1v1 style play. The reason "standard" 1v1 play is so much more macro heavy is that at the start of a game all your eggs are in one basket; in 2v2 you have 2 baskets, so splitting the enemy's forces through early pressure is very potent.

So if you 4gate with mass ling and they are going for any kind of tech play, you've just won. If they don't, and the early pressure builds come out as a draw (assuming good execution from both teams) you get a macro game. At the higher levels of play this happens fairly often - which is the OP's main point.

edit: I see that you redacted your post. Good move lol.
ProTech
Profile Joined November 2010
United States439 Posts
May 05 2011 04:46 GMT
#19
Absolutely perfect analysis of the team play.

L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
May 05 2011 04:49 GMT
#20
It still doesn't take any more skill than executing the same builds in 1v1. 10 pool, 4 gate etc are just as easy to do regardless of if you call it cheese or standard play. The argument of what is cheese and what isn't is irrelevant. And macro is practically non-existent when the maps don't let you take more than 2 expansions. The only thing I agree with is the teamwork, which is important.

Fact is 2v2's encourage aggression rather than defensive play, and mostly end at the early stages of the game that is the least predictable and gives the least opportunity for scouting. The simple reason for this is because 2 attackers can attack 1 defender. This makes static defense half as good. This encourages building (attacking) units instead of static defense. So there's no real reason not to attack. Also, preparing defenses for 2 races or 2 different unit compositions (and the different timing attacks that they have) is impossible for 1 player.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
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