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On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
bingo! thank you for reading the OP  Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o
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On May 05 2011 08:23 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. Even banelings and roaches? But anyways, I thought the problem was 2 rax marines and bunkers in your base. Terran can't do it all at once either.
Yes a good terran if he is unable to apply pressure with a 2 rax or sniff out your cheese he'll just scan to make sure. Then a couple of well spaced out bunkers which can be sold for a full refund will be constructed and deny any cheese you can throw at him.
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On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o
So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Aggressive zerg builds are way more dangerous than you give them credit for.
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United States9232 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead?
Because you're boned at that point.
EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you.
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On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you.
Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
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On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead?
because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win.
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On May 05 2011 08:20 FakeBoxeR wrote:
Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
Pros like close spawns for balance on metalopolis. Even Terrans like Jinro.
Edit : cross*
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Okay, I'm not a big fan of QQ threads like this, but the responses are ridiculous. It actually takes skill to win a ZvT in cross positions, there's a real effort. Because of the speed of the units, zerg 2-base all-ins come 5 seconds sooner in close positions while terran and protoss 1/2 base all-ins come 10-15 seconds faster which crosses a critical threshold where you can pump the last few units you need to hold in close positions and get the into proper position.
For ZvT specifically metal is the worst because tanks can sit along the ridge on high ground and support tanks on low ground attack your natural and it takes no time to get there. It's very hard to counter attack and flank because of all this as well and they can make a PF on the high ground if they don't want to go all-in with the push which can be incredibly difficult to deal with.
It's not impossible to win, even against other strong opponents, but you need to take pretty stupid risks that don't give you a substantial chance of success.
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On May 05 2011 08:31 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:20 FakeBoxeR wrote:
Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
Pros like close spawns for balance on metalopolis. Even Terrans like Jinro.
do you mean cross spawns? of course a terran like jinro would favor close positions
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1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
Generally, the method Zergs have tried successfully in tournaments I've watched has been a roach all-in to break the wall followed by lings. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, depending on if the T puts up a bunker in time and if the Z has an overlord positioned on the how ground. The 2rax bunker rush is easily held these days, really, so the only worry is the later push after teching which the roaches can answer okay.
I believe Catz does this with a no-queen roach attack. Not 100% sure, though.
2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
I think their view is that Metalopolis effectively cannot be removed from the map pool at this point (just like Xel Naga Caverns, much as I wish those two maps would be rotated out. So bored of them). This means they can either go the MLG route and disable close spawns or just leave it in.
I think their desire by leaving close spawns in is to force at least one map/position where Zerg should play aggressive, all-in play even if they thumbs down the obviously bad ones. They've stated repeatedly that they want a variety in the playstyles in the maps in the pool and Metalopolis alone creates that variety.
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On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
The idea is that zergs can not "start" a baneling bust and just pull back because we just lost (1/2)*(#of lings) drones
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Try the kyrix build on close spawns, it actually works so well.
Open 14 gas, 14 pool, pull drones at 100 gas, get speed and queen after pool, and hatchery on 21 while making 6 lings (after ur 15 overlord finishes). It's the safest way to expand vs Terran, especially on close spawns where a 14 hatch should get owned.
The kyrix build, while I dont have any specific numbers, is basically a 2 base high economy baneling bust with around 15 banelings. I don't have the exact numbers, fiddle around wiht them yourself and see what works.
As a reference, watch morrow's game vs Jinro in the TSL (I think it was game 1 and 3). Morrow goes for a realyl strong 2 base baneling / zergling all in. If Terran delays tanks for earlier medivacs its pretty much a free win. If he doesn't then it's not an instant win but still has a good chance to succeed.
But yea, don't do any strat that involves a 3rd base, its impossibly hard to hold on to.
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On May 05 2011 08:30 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win.
I don't buy into neither zerg being 'behind' from making units nor bunkers being 'essentially' free.
To the first point, if you are that concerned about investing in units that you might not absolutely have a use for at that particular time, then pool your larva.
To the second point, building bunkers WILL make a terran push weaker because the terran player has no way of actually investing the refund into units. Either he has just enough unit producing buildings to spend all his cash as it comes in, or he invested in extras to be able to spend the refund with. Which sets him behind by the cost of those buildings as far as the strength of the push is concerned. Terran cannot turn money into army strength as quickly as protoss or zerg can.
So I think these are myths to a degree or at least not as clear cut as they are being used as universal truths to build an argument upon here.
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United States9232 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
Is it really that hard to understand? Really? Do you not understand those are at different timings in the game?
Here, I'll spell it out for you. Terran opens 2 rax aggression vs Zerg. If by some godsend Zerg holds it off without any drone casualties (I'll assume then Terran has no SCV casualties), he still has not more than 17 drones mining until the aggression stops, and is still forced to place a spine. Speed will not be done for a bit, and during this time, Terran expands freely. This is the most optimal situation for a Zerg, and occurs less than 20% of the time. Then, Zerg pumps drones after the spine, while Terran expos, now Zerg is starting to gain a worker advantage, and decides to high econ baneling bust. Zerg dumps a shitton of gas into banelings, and thus consequently stays on hatchery tech. While this is happening, Terran is teching up to siege mode, and is building bunkers to defend this baneling bust. Under an ideal scenario, the timing to hit with the bust happens just before the siege tank gets siege mode. Cool, but we run into bunkers, and as you say, we turn back and "light contain." But now the siege tank is out, and in siege mode, and another is incoming, and the second factory is building. You JUST started your friggin' lair tech. Stim hasn't finished yet, but who cares, he's not moving out, yet. By the time your lair finishes, he starts moving towards your base with ~3 tanks and a bunch of marines (with stim done now), combat shields on the way, and reaches your base in SECONDS. Baneling speed isn't anywhere close to done, suggesting mutas is a complete and utter joke, and you're boned when he has his siege tanks hugging the upper ridge. Oh, and you can't flank, or catch him offguard before he sieges.
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill? How do you evaluate skill?
Hate to do this but /thread.
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Theres a reason why every tournament nowadays doesn't allow close spawns. It just isn't fair for the Zerg player. In my experience your only chance to all-in baneling bust or something.
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On May 05 2011 08:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating. Is it really that hard to understand? Really? Do you not understand those are at different timings in the game? Here, I'll spell it out for you. Terran opens 2 rax aggression vs Zerg. If by some godsend Zerg holds it off without any drone casualties (I'll assume then Terran has no SCV casualties), he still has not more than 17 drones mining until the aggression stops, and is still forced to place a spine. Speed will not be done for a bit, and during this time, Terran expands freely. This is the most optimal situation for a Zerg, and occurs less than 20% of the time. Then, Zerg pumps drones after the spine, while Terran expos, now Zerg is starting to gain a worker advantage, and decides to high econ baneling bust. Zerg dumps a shitton of gas into banelings, and thus consequently stays on hatchery tech. While this is happening, Terran is teching up to siege mode, and is building bunkers to defend this baneling bust. Under an ideal scenario, the timing to hit with the bust happens just before the siege tank gets siege mode. Cool, but we run into bunkers, and as you say, we turn back and "light contain." But now the siege tank is out, and in siege mode, and another is incoming, and the second factory is building. You JUST started your friggin' lair tech. Stim hasn't finished yet, but who cares, he's not moving out, yet. By the time your lair finishes, he starts moving towards your base with ~3 tanks and a bunch of marines (with stim done now), combat shields on the way, and reaches your base in SECONDS. Baneling speed isn't anywhere close to done, suggesting mutas is a complete and utter joke, and you're boned when he has his siege tanks hugging the upper ridge. Oh, and you can't flank, or catch him offguard before he sieges.
I just smiled cause i was too lazy to respond to his statement and im glad someone else did lol
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On May 05 2011 08:40 Karthane wrote:
Theres a reason why every tournament nowadays doesn't allow close spawns. It just isn't fair for the Zerg player. In my experience your only chance to all-in baneling bust or something.
I agree with you 100%. Its just I want to find a logical explanation behind this as to WHY til this day since beta metalopolis close spawn has remained in the game. KEEP IN MIND steppes of war was removed from the game which id 100% of the time would rather play in a ZvT rather then close spawn on Metalopolis
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LIME WHEN WILL YOU STREAM AGAIN I MISS UUUUUUU
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On May 05 2011 08:38 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:30 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win. I don't buy into neither zerg being 'behind' from making units nor bunkers being 'essentially' free. To the first point, if you are that concerned about investing in units that you might not absolutely have a use for at that particular time, then pool your larva. To the second point, building bunkers WILL make a terran push weaker because the terran player has no way of actually investing the refund into units. Either he has just enough unit producing buildings to spend all his cash as it comes in, or he invested in extras to be able to spend the refund with. Which sets him behind by the cost of those buildings as far as the strength of the push is concerned. Terran cannot turn money into army strength as quickly as protoss or zerg can. So I think these are myths to a degree or at least not as clear cut as they are being used as universal truths to build an argument upon here.
the concern is not about the making of actual units, it's about spending larva on unit instead of drones. if you don't make drones with those larva, you are behind: you can't just "pool larva". that's the concern, not the actual cost of the units.
also, you may be right about the second point but i'm not sure as i do not play terran. your argument seems logical though!
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EPT
