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Hey so I need help from the community to explain to me two things.
1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
Also just for a little info on Metalopolis close spawn for some perspective, it has the closest ground distance between two bases out of any other map blizzard has ever put on the ladder. Yes it is even shorter ground distance on between close spawn bases on Metalopolis then the ground distance was between bases on Steppes Of War! Now I do not want to use this thread as a balance discussion so DO NOT turn it into one. I just want to hear peoples answers to the two questions I am asking to help broaden my insight of how blizzard thinks. And no thumbs downing Metalopolis is not an option because I want to use it as practice for upcoming Lan events one of which is MLG, which negates close spawn on Metalopolis. Yes I could use practice partners but playing at the level I am on ladder it is good practice to just ladder and face people on ladder that I will be facing at MLG anyways.
Thanks,
Lime
p.s. The reason I am not bringing zvp into the question is because its much easier to all in a P off 2 base or even 1 base in a close spawn situation, but if a terran sniffs out a 1 base or 2 base all in they can just bunker up a lot and win ez pz.
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I don't understand either. I'm not nearly at that skill level, but I really struggle--especially against terran--on close positions, with how fast they siege up and reinforce. I really don't think it's fair at all, and that MLG maps are making the right decision removing that kind of ridiculous spawning location.
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2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
Ask on B.net
1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
Who says they don't?
Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill?
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In my opinion, it's not fair at all.
zerg can not play standard vs. protoss or terran in close positions. In close positions, the time zerg has to react to a push is limited, but if zerg builds units in advance, they're behind (less drones can be made). Also, if they over commit to a defense, they're behind.
Like you said, zvp in close positions is easier because all-ins vs. protoss are fairly easy to execute, but it is still fairly imbalanced because standard play is not rewarded whatsoever.
In zvt, all-ins are much harder to win with, so that's usually not a viable option. Instead, zerg are forced to play standard. However, they have no way to scout the terran so long as the terran leaves a few marines on the perimeter to scout for scouting overlords. In addition, because zerg cannot scout the terran, you basically have to guess at what the terran is doing as there is no "one build counters all" strategy that zerg has. If zerg guesses wrong or reacts too late (which is VERY common in close positions), they lose.
Essentially, it's a catch 22: if zerg builds units to defend too early, they're behind. If zerg builds units when the terran is pushing out in close positions, they lose.
at the post above me: you're answering questions with more questions. why bother posting at all if you aren't going to be answering the question at hand or at least attempting to?
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill? How do you evaluate skill?
Trust me i know a good amount of the top level zergs and pretty much if u r facing a terran of equivalent skill or slightly less skilled then you, you are more then likely going to lose as a zerg. This is assuming you are playing some kind of standard opening as a FE or fast ling speed into an expansion.
What I really do not understand though is how blizzard realizes close spawn on old shakuras plateau via the back door rocks was not fair for the various MUs in the game but how this situation has been the same since beta. I just want to know if anyone has a better understanding of why blizzard has decided to keep it this way.
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They said Shakuras was fair but boring. Get your facts straight.
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On May 05 2011 08:05 gogogadgetflow wrote:
They said Shakuras was fair but boring. Get your facts straight.
No they had also mentioned that mass mech builds for terran coming through the back door and leap frogging with tanks was too hard for zerg AND protoss to handle if the terran executed the right timing.
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill?
Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated.
So hypothetically speaking, if Zerg took 25% more skill than Terran and the Blizzards system has them equally ranked, then the Zerg player is still 25% better.
Edit: sorry for off topic. No answer behind the logic of close position metal. :\
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On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated.
Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions.
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You don't, that's why you just roach rush them.
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Someone explain to me how zerg automatically gets behind by building units. Given the ability to produce multiple workers at once, is there not a way to stay on even worker production footage while getting units like the other two races?
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On May 05 2011 08:11 eloist wrote:
Someone explain to me how zerg automatically gets behind by building units. Given the ability to produce multiple workers at once, is there not a way to stay on even worker production footage while getting units like the other two races?
No because of larva. Zerg uses larva for drones, units, and overlords. Building only drones you will still be forced to get overlords as well. Same goes for only building units. Zerg gets behind when they make units because every second that unit is out it could have potentially been a drone mining. The optimal way to play Zerg from an economic standpoint would be to make nothing but drones and then when the enemy pushes out, make exactly the number of units to defend. This means that if your last unit and their last unit kill eachother at the same time your playing 100% perfect Zerg 
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:09 Limenade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated. Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions.
Skill level is relative, there is no such thing as the same level of skill.
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Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
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On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
Erm, the point is that a Terran playing standard will still beat the shit out of a Zerg playing standard in those positions, too. A Terran player knows this and can either cheese, or play conservatively thinking that the Zerg will cheese them. Even when playing safe, it still loses to Zerg standard/greedy most of the time, especially with salvage bunkers.
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Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
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On May 05 2011 08:16 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:09 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated. Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions. Skill level is relative, there is no such thing as the same level of skill.
*facepalm* who cares bout the skill for gods sake. Just imagine two people ROUGHLY of equivalent skill are playing close spawn metal. One is a Z and one is a T. Most people gonna bet the ranch on the T if you are forced to make a bet.
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On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
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On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
Even banelings and roaches? But anyways, I thought the problem was 2 rax marines and bunkers in your base. Terran can't do it all at once either.
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EPT
