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Hey so I need help from the community to explain to me two things.
1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
Also just for a little info on Metalopolis close spawn for some perspective, it has the closest ground distance between two bases out of any other map blizzard has ever put on the ladder. Yes it is even shorter ground distance on between close spawn bases on Metalopolis then the ground distance was between bases on Steppes Of War! Now I do not want to use this thread as a balance discussion so DO NOT turn it into one. I just want to hear peoples answers to the two questions I am asking to help broaden my insight of how blizzard thinks. And no thumbs downing Metalopolis is not an option because I want to use it as practice for upcoming Lan events one of which is MLG, which negates close spawn on Metalopolis. Yes I could use practice partners but playing at the level I am on ladder it is good practice to just ladder and face people on ladder that I will be facing at MLG anyways.
Thanks,
Lime
p.s. The reason I am not bringing zvp into the question is because its much easier to all in a P off 2 base or even 1 base in a close spawn situation, but if a terran sniffs out a 1 base or 2 base all in they can just bunker up a lot and win ez pz.
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I don't understand either. I'm not nearly at that skill level, but I really struggle--especially against terran--on close positions, with how fast they siege up and reinforce. I really don't think it's fair at all, and that MLG maps are making the right decision removing that kind of ridiculous spawning location.
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2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
Ask on B.net
1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
Who says they don't?
Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill?
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In my opinion, it's not fair at all.
zerg can not play standard vs. protoss or terran in close positions. In close positions, the time zerg has to react to a push is limited, but if zerg builds units in advance, they're behind (less drones can be made). Also, if they over commit to a defense, they're behind.
Like you said, zvp in close positions is easier because all-ins vs. protoss are fairly easy to execute, but it is still fairly imbalanced because standard play is not rewarded whatsoever.
In zvt, all-ins are much harder to win with, so that's usually not a viable option. Instead, zerg are forced to play standard. However, they have no way to scout the terran so long as the terran leaves a few marines on the perimeter to scout for scouting overlords. In addition, because zerg cannot scout the terran, you basically have to guess at what the terran is doing as there is no "one build counters all" strategy that zerg has. If zerg guesses wrong or reacts too late (which is VERY common in close positions), they lose.
Essentially, it's a catch 22: if zerg builds units to defend too early, they're behind. If zerg builds units when the terran is pushing out in close positions, they lose.
at the post above me: you're answering questions with more questions. why bother posting at all if you aren't going to be answering the question at hand or at least attempting to?
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill? How do you evaluate skill?
Trust me i know a good amount of the top level zergs and pretty much if u r facing a terran of equivalent skill or slightly less skilled then you, you are more then likely going to lose as a zerg. This is assuming you are playing some kind of standard opening as a FE or fast ling speed into an expansion.
What I really do not understand though is how blizzard realizes close spawn on old shakuras plateau via the back door rocks was not fair for the various MUs in the game but how this situation has been the same since beta. I just want to know if anyone has a better understanding of why blizzard has decided to keep it this way.
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They said Shakuras was fair but boring. Get your facts straight.
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On May 05 2011 08:05 gogogadgetflow wrote:
They said Shakuras was fair but boring. Get your facts straight.
No they had also mentioned that mass mech builds for terran coming through the back door and leap frogging with tanks was too hard for zerg AND protoss to handle if the terran executed the right timing.
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill?
Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated.
So hypothetically speaking, if Zerg took 25% more skill than Terran and the Blizzards system has them equally ranked, then the Zerg player is still 25% better.
Edit: sorry for off topic. No answer behind the logic of close position metal. :\
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On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated.
Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions.
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You don't, that's why you just roach rush them.
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Someone explain to me how zerg automatically gets behind by building units. Given the ability to produce multiple workers at once, is there not a way to stay on even worker production footage while getting units like the other two races?
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On May 05 2011 08:11 eloist wrote:
Someone explain to me how zerg automatically gets behind by building units. Given the ability to produce multiple workers at once, is there not a way to stay on even worker production footage while getting units like the other two races?
No because of larva. Zerg uses larva for drones, units, and overlords. Building only drones you will still be forced to get overlords as well. Same goes for only building units. Zerg gets behind when they make units because every second that unit is out it could have potentially been a drone mining. The optimal way to play Zerg from an economic standpoint would be to make nothing but drones and then when the enemy pushes out, make exactly the number of units to defend. This means that if your last unit and their last unit kill eachother at the same time your playing 100% perfect Zerg 
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:09 Limenade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated. Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions.
Skill level is relative, there is no such thing as the same level of skill.
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Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
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On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
Erm, the point is that a Terran playing standard will still beat the shit out of a Zerg playing standard in those positions, too. A Terran player knows this and can either cheese, or play conservatively thinking that the Zerg will cheese them. Even when playing safe, it still loses to Zerg standard/greedy most of the time, especially with salvage bunkers.
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Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
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On May 05 2011 08:16 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:09 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:08 R0YAL wrote:On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net 1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill?
How do you evaluate skill? Valid point. The ranking system that blizzard has is essentially an illusion. Its basically assuming that each race is 100% balanced in all matchups as well as each race having the exact amount of skill required to play. I think its safe to say that this is not the case, this is why IdrA often gets frustrated. Why is this even brought up >< JUST ASSUME THAT THE TWO PLAYERS WHO ARE MEETING ARE ON THE SAME SKILL LEVEL. I was just using that as a reference to let ya know that im not a low level player who doesn't know to play. So please stick to the topic and answer the questions. Skill level is relative, there is no such thing as the same level of skill.
*facepalm* who cares bout the skill for gods sake. Just imagine two people ROUGHLY of equivalent skill are playing close spawn metal. One is a Z and one is a T. Most people gonna bet the ranch on the T if you are forced to make a bet.
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On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine?
if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
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On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
Even banelings and roaches? But anyways, I thought the problem was 2 rax marines and bunkers in your base. Terran can't do it all at once either.
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On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers.
bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o
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On May 05 2011 08:23 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. Even banelings and roaches? But anyways, I thought the problem was 2 rax marines and bunkers in your base. Terran can't do it all at once either.
Yes a good terran if he is unable to apply pressure with a 2 rax or sniff out your cheese he'll just scan to make sure. Then a couple of well spaced out bunkers which can be sold for a full refund will be constructed and deny any cheese you can throw at him.
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On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o
So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Aggressive zerg builds are way more dangerous than you give them credit for.
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On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead?
Because you're boned at that point.
EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you.
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On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you.
Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
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On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead?
because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win.
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On May 05 2011 08:20 FakeBoxeR wrote:
Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
Pros like close spawns for balance on metalopolis. Even Terrans like Jinro.
Edit : cross*
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Okay, I'm not a big fan of QQ threads like this, but the responses are ridiculous. It actually takes skill to win a ZvT in cross positions, there's a real effort. Because of the speed of the units, zerg 2-base all-ins come 5 seconds sooner in close positions while terran and protoss 1/2 base all-ins come 10-15 seconds faster which crosses a critical threshold where you can pump the last few units you need to hold in close positions and get the into proper position.
For ZvT specifically metal is the worst because tanks can sit along the ridge on high ground and support tanks on low ground attack your natural and it takes no time to get there. It's very hard to counter attack and flank because of all this as well and they can make a PF on the high ground if they don't want to go all-in with the push which can be incredibly difficult to deal with.
It's not impossible to win, even against other strong opponents, but you need to take pretty stupid risks that don't give you a substantial chance of success.
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On May 05 2011 08:31 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:20 FakeBoxeR wrote:
Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
Pros like close spawns for balance on metalopolis. Even Terrans like Jinro.
do you mean cross spawns? of course a terran like jinro would favor close positions
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1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis?
Generally, the method Zergs have tried successfully in tournaments I've watched has been a roach all-in to break the wall followed by lings. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, depending on if the T puts up a bunker in time and if the Z has an overlord positioned on the how ground. The 2rax bunker rush is easily held these days, really, so the only worry is the later push after teching which the roaches can answer okay.
I believe Catz does this with a no-queen roach attack. Not 100% sure, though.
2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made?
I think their view is that Metalopolis effectively cannot be removed from the map pool at this point (just like Xel Naga Caverns, much as I wish those two maps would be rotated out. So bored of them). This means they can either go the MLG route and disable close spawns or just leave it in.
I think their desire by leaving close spawns in is to force at least one map/position where Zerg should play aggressive, all-in play even if they thumbs down the obviously bad ones. They've stated repeatedly that they want a variety in the playstyles in the maps in the pool and Metalopolis alone creates that variety.
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On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
The idea is that zergs can not "start" a baneling bust and just pull back because we just lost (1/2)*(#of lings) drones
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Try the kyrix build on close spawns, it actually works so well.
Open 14 gas, 14 pool, pull drones at 100 gas, get speed and queen after pool, and hatchery on 21 while making 6 lings (after ur 15 overlord finishes). It's the safest way to expand vs Terran, especially on close spawns where a 14 hatch should get owned.
The kyrix build, while I dont have any specific numbers, is basically a 2 base high economy baneling bust with around 15 banelings. I don't have the exact numbers, fiddle around wiht them yourself and see what works.
As a reference, watch morrow's game vs Jinro in the TSL (I think it was game 1 and 3). Morrow goes for a realyl strong 2 base baneling / zergling all in. If Terran delays tanks for earlier medivacs its pretty much a free win. If he doesn't then it's not an instant win but still has a good chance to succeed.
But yea, don't do any strat that involves a 3rd base, its impossibly hard to hold on to.
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On May 05 2011 08:30 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win.
I don't buy into neither zerg being 'behind' from making units nor bunkers being 'essentially' free.
To the first point, if you are that concerned about investing in units that you might not absolutely have a use for at that particular time, then pool your larva.
To the second point, building bunkers WILL make a terran push weaker because the terran player has no way of actually investing the refund into units. Either he has just enough unit producing buildings to spend all his cash as it comes in, or he invested in extras to be able to spend the refund with. Which sets him behind by the cost of those buildings as far as the strength of the push is concerned. Terran cannot turn money into army strength as quickly as protoss or zerg can.
So I think these are myths to a degree or at least not as clear cut as they are being used as universal truths to build an argument upon here.
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On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating.
Is it really that hard to understand? Really? Do you not understand those are at different timings in the game?
Here, I'll spell it out for you. Terran opens 2 rax aggression vs Zerg. If by some godsend Zerg holds it off without any drone casualties (I'll assume then Terran has no SCV casualties), he still has not more than 17 drones mining until the aggression stops, and is still forced to place a spine. Speed will not be done for a bit, and during this time, Terran expands freely. This is the most optimal situation for a Zerg, and occurs less than 20% of the time. Then, Zerg pumps drones after the spine, while Terran expos, now Zerg is starting to gain a worker advantage, and decides to high econ baneling bust. Zerg dumps a shitton of gas into banelings, and thus consequently stays on hatchery tech. While this is happening, Terran is teching up to siege mode, and is building bunkers to defend this baneling bust. Under an ideal scenario, the timing to hit with the bust happens just before the siege tank gets siege mode. Cool, but we run into bunkers, and as you say, we turn back and "light contain." But now the siege tank is out, and in siege mode, and another is incoming, and the second factory is building. You JUST started your friggin' lair tech. Stim hasn't finished yet, but who cares, he's not moving out, yet. By the time your lair finishes, he starts moving towards your base with ~3 tanks and a bunch of marines (with stim done now), combat shields on the way, and reaches your base in SECONDS. Baneling speed isn't anywhere close to done, suggesting mutas is a complete and utter joke, and you're boned when he has his siege tanks hugging the upper ridge. Oh, and you can't flank, or catch him offguard before he sieges.
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On May 05 2011 07:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +2) How does blizzard rationalize that close spawn Metalopolis zvt is fair but close spawn (or horizontal spawn) on old shakuras plateau with backdoor rocks was not fair, causing for the new shakuras plateau to be made? Ask on B.net Show nested quote +1) How is a zerg player who is playing top 50 players in Grand Masters supposed to beat a terran who is on the same skill level if not better in close spawn on Metalopolis? Who says they don't? Who says GM's have equal skill? How do you evaluate skill?
Hate to do this but /thread.
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Theres a reason why every tournament nowadays doesn't allow close spawns. It just isn't fair for the Zerg player. In my experience your only chance to all-in baneling bust or something.
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On May 05 2011 08:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating. Is it really that hard to understand? Really? Do you not understand those are at different timings in the game? Here, I'll spell it out for you. Terran opens 2 rax aggression vs Zerg. If by some godsend Zerg holds it off without any drone casualties (I'll assume then Terran has no SCV casualties), he still has not more than 17 drones mining until the aggression stops, and is still forced to place a spine. Speed will not be done for a bit, and during this time, Terran expands freely. This is the most optimal situation for a Zerg, and occurs less than 20% of the time. Then, Zerg pumps drones after the spine, while Terran expos, now Zerg is starting to gain a worker advantage, and decides to high econ baneling bust. Zerg dumps a shitton of gas into banelings, and thus consequently stays on hatchery tech. While this is happening, Terran is teching up to siege mode, and is building bunkers to defend this baneling bust. Under an ideal scenario, the timing to hit with the bust happens just before the siege tank gets siege mode. Cool, but we run into bunkers, and as you say, we turn back and "light contain." But now the siege tank is out, and in siege mode, and another is incoming, and the second factory is building. You JUST started your friggin' lair tech. Stim hasn't finished yet, but who cares, he's not moving out, yet. By the time your lair finishes, he starts moving towards your base with ~3 tanks and a bunch of marines (with stim done now), combat shields on the way, and reaches your base in SECONDS. Baneling speed isn't anywhere close to done, suggesting mutas is a complete and utter joke, and you're boned when he has his siege tanks hugging the upper ridge. Oh, and you can't flank, or catch him offguard before he sieges.
I just smiled cause i was too lazy to respond to his statement and im glad someone else did lol
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On May 05 2011 08:40 Karthane wrote:
Theres a reason why every tournament nowadays doesn't allow close spawns. It just isn't fair for the Zerg player. In my experience your only chance to all-in baneling bust or something.
I agree with you 100%. Its just I want to find a logical explanation behind this as to WHY til this day since beta metalopolis close spawn has remained in the game. KEEP IN MIND steppes of war was removed from the game which id 100% of the time would rather play in a ZvT rather then close spawn on Metalopolis
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LIME WHEN WILL YOU STREAM AGAIN I MISS UUUUUUU
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On May 05 2011 08:38 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:30 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? because from making all those units the zerg will be behind. and since bunker are essentially free (even after the update they will be next to free) the terran can just salvage and push out. since you didn't make many drones from making all those attacking units, and you won't be able to outproduce him and he will win. I don't buy into neither zerg being 'behind' from making units nor bunkers being 'essentially' free. To the first point, if you are that concerned about investing in units that you might not absolutely have a use for at that particular time, then pool your larva. To the second point, building bunkers WILL make a terran push weaker because the terran player has no way of actually investing the refund into units. Either he has just enough unit producing buildings to spend all his cash as it comes in, or he invested in extras to be able to spend the refund with. Which sets him behind by the cost of those buildings as far as the strength of the push is concerned. Terran cannot turn money into army strength as quickly as protoss or zerg can. So I think these are myths to a degree or at least not as clear cut as they are being used as universal truths to build an argument upon here.
the concern is not about the making of actual units, it's about spending larva on unit instead of drones. if you don't make drones with those larva, you are behind: you can't just "pool larva". that's the concern, not the actual cost of the units.
also, you may be right about the second point but i'm not sure as i do not play terran. your argument seems logical though!
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On May 05 2011 08:20 FakeBoxeR wrote:
Close spawns favor terran
Cross spawns favor zerg
Cross spawns does not favor Zerg.
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I think the difference was siegeing the main as opposed to the natural
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imo, 2 base zerg play is vastly underrated. the main reason i think zergs lose so much close spawn is because zerg players like to be greedy, and they love their drones. doing so leaves alot of holes in your play because of close pos. in my experience (top 200 player since beta), zergs who adapt their play for close spawn do just fine.
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yea you are pretty fucked close positions. I suggest a roach all in. And just stop trying lol. It's like back in broodwar when protoss had to play 12v3 on Lost temple. They either went some kind of random cheese or died when T got siege. Zerg had random 1 hatch builds that could work in those spots too.
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Pooling larva is not a universal solve obviously but it is an asset in the zerg toolbox that I think could be used more often. Last time I remember seeing it was Leenock against some Protoss on Blistering Sands though. It was pretty cool.
In regards to that battle report writeup, well, I could reply with a bunch of 'what if's' and then you'd have plenty more 'but then's' and it wouldn't get us anywhere. You're clearly a better player than I am so I'll back off now.
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It's not just the short rush distance but the fact that the terran has the opportunity for an easy expansion that they make a PF.
This forces to the Zerg to expand further away thus opening themselves up to drops and especially multi pronged drops.
The terran has such an easy push from his third into the zergs natural with tanks on high ground and the ability to pull back to the PF for extra defense if the push is failing.
The OP is spot on.
Cross positions don't favour the zerg, it just makes things even.
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On May 05 2011 08:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:30 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:28 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 05 2011 08:26 eloist wrote:On May 05 2011 08:24 Limenade wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Malstriks wrote:On May 05 2011 08:16 FrostOtter wrote:
Terran cheeses on close positions, Toss cheeses on close positions...why don't you? I never try to play a macro game on close positions on Metal. If it turns into one, then so be it, but why not give them a taste of their own medicine? if you had bothered to read, you would have seen that the OP states that terran defends zerg cheese easily with bunkers. bingo! thank you for reading the OP Sure you can do a 2 base all in baneling bust or something if you really want to. But 4 spread out bunkers behind the wall in will easily deflect it, if not less bunkers. Then since its such a close spawn distance the terran can just get out of his bunkers and go counter attack before you can rebuild or even take a 3rd O_o So if you start busting and see all that why don't you just turn around, light contain and expand instead? Because you're boned at that point. EDIT: To spell it out, impossible to get baneling speed now in time by the time he pushes you. Care to explain how? This discussion swung from 2 rax pressure to 4 bunker turtling being impossible for zerg to deal with in close positions and I find that irritating. Is it really that hard to understand? Really? Do you not understand those are at different timings in the game? Here, I'll spell it out for you. Terran opens 2 rax aggression vs Zerg. If by some godsend Zerg holds it off without any drone casualties (I'll assume then Terran has no SCV casualties), he still has not more than 17 drones mining until the aggression stops, and is still forced to place a spine. Speed will not be done for a bit, and during this time, Terran expands freely. This is the most optimal situation for a Zerg, and occurs less than 20% of the time. Then, Zerg pumps drones after the spine, while Terran expos, now Zerg is starting to gain a worker advantage, and decides to high econ baneling bust. Zerg dumps a shitton of gas into banelings, and thus consequently stays on hatchery tech. While this is happening, Terran is teching up to siege mode, and is building bunkers to defend this baneling bust. Under an ideal scenario, the timing to hit with the bust happens just before the siege tank gets siege mode. Cool, but we run into bunkers, and as you say, we turn back and "light contain." But now the siege tank is out, and in siege mode, and another is incoming, and the second factory is building. You JUST started your friggin' lair tech. Stim hasn't finished yet, but who cares, he's not moving out, yet. By the time your lair finishes, he starts moving towards your base with ~3 tanks and a bunch of marines (with stim done now), combat shields on the way, and reaches your base in SECONDS. Baneling speed isn't anywhere close to done, suggesting mutas is a complete and utter joke, and you're boned when he has his siege tanks hugging the upper ridge. Oh, and you can't flank, or catch him offguard before he sieges.
Honestly, any time you ZvT on close spawns metal you're going to be at a big disadvantage. I agree with what you're saying, but I think the only thing you can really do is choose a strategy that will somehow minimize your disadvantage or sidestep it, or use the factors to your advantage.
I like doing a 2 base baneling bust because it turns the advantage of close rush distance to my side, its a fairly powerful all in in its own right, and it side steps the issue of "i can't get a 3rd base". Your analysis is right, bunkers and correct sige timing will nullify it, but I think its just the best chance Zerg has given the circumstances.
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On May 05 2011 08:11 eloist wrote:
Someone explain to me how zerg automatically gets behind by building units. Given the ability to produce multiple workers at once, is there not a way to stay on even worker production footage while getting units like the other two races?
Perhaps I can provide an answer for you.
It's a matter of how costly production is.
The ability of a hatch and queen to pump out is the same production capability as 2 rax and a CC.
On two base, you get the same production as 4 rax and 2 CC, which actually isn't much, if you've played Terran. This ignores orbital, so terran gets a pretty sizable boost on top of that.
This sort of means if you pump out lings:drones in the same ratio as terran pumps out marines:scv's, you're going to be behind economically, while only staying even in military at present.
That economic disadvantage leads to a military disadvantage in the future.
That, obviously, is not good.
The answer to why zerg macro mechanics is a strength of the race is that you have the option of going completely one side. So you can massively drone pump, and then massive army pump. At first glance, it seems like it's the equivalent to building constant drone and constant army, but it's not. The earlier you have econ, the more powerful it becomes, and so even if you build the same # of drones, if you build them earlier, they will be more useful.
The game is balanced around the fact that zerg has this capability. If zerg doesn't use it, obv it will be at a disadvantage (in general).
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EPT
