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On August 10 2011 11:47 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:43 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:42 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style.
The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks.
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main? What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons? Be good at warping in a zealot in that spot or leave 1 sentry behind. 1. you most likely used up all your warpgates to warp in at your 3rd already, 2. you cant rely on the fact that you are going to be able to forcefield off speedlings from getting inside your base. Even if you are MC, thats not very likely. This disussion is pointless though, its easy from your perspective to say that you shouldnt have let those lings inside your main but its going to happen more often than not, especially when you are busy fighting off an attack at your 3rd.
Your just arguing about mechanics.
Can all the Zergs hit every inject and spread creep every cool down? Probably not.
But preventing a ling run-by or counter attack is a fundamental part of the game which isn't overpowered. It differentiates the good players from the bad.
Do you have enough APM and awareness to Force Field or Warp in? Does the Zerg have enough APM to constantly threaten this run-by? Can you leave some units behind to thwart the ling run-by?
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On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Who said a timing push had to be all-in?
Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary?
You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg.
You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win.
Or
You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall.
Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg.
It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest.
If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them.
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On August 10 2011 11:49 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:48 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
xiaon5 and Kajarn. You've managed to turn a relatively balanced and general discussion into a theoretical game and specific situations. Lol. And quietnoise5 (:
No, i just pointed out that Zerg is likely to do multi pronged attacks. Doesnt even have to be with zerglings.
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On August 10 2011 11:52 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:49 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:48 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
xiaon5 and Kajarn. You've managed to turn a relatively balanced and general discussion into a theoretical game and specific situations. Lol. And quietnoise5 (: No, i just pointed out that Zerg is likely to do multi pronged attacks. Doesnt even have to be with zerglings.
I don't understand your point anymore.
Weren't we arguing about PvZ?
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On August 10 2011 11:52 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:49 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:48 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
xiaon5 and Kajarn. You've managed to turn a relatively balanced and general discussion into a theoretical game and specific situations. Lol. And quietnoise5 (: No, i just pointed out that Zerg is likely to do multi pronged attacks. Doesnt even have to be with zerglings.
Wrong quote...
Also, keeping if you have observers out and are turtling, probably on three bases, multipronged attacks aren't a problem.
Edit: And your saying crap like "It's just NOT viable, doom drops on 2 bases will just KILLZ it"
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On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them.
Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd.
I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that.
Edit: even if you have a good amount of gateways you WONT beat a roach/ling army once it gets into your main and you opened stargate. wont happen
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On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them.
As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more.
This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup.
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On August 10 2011 11:56 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style.
The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks.
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more. This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup.
The strength of Stargate is not ONLY in doing damage, but granting map control.
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On August 10 2011 11:59 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:56 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more. This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup. The strength of Stargate is not ONLY in doing damage, but granting map control.
It only grants map control if you use your air units to patrol around the map instead of trying to do damage to his mineral line. either way you are not likely to be able to prevent a big drop from happening. it has never happened in a pro-level game that i am aware of.
and as kajarn pointed out, that map control is basicly worthless since zerg is able to safely macro for a good amount of minutes.
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On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style.
The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks.
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that.
Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col.
By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers.
OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!!
By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped.
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I'm highly disappointed in you guys.
I was really hoping that while incontrol was discussing protoss balance, one of you would hold up your keyboard and show him the hotkeys for nexus, cannons, and forcefields.
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On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. -you make a hallucinated phoenix, see a bunch of infestors and realize you cant pressure so you turtle up and take bases. the style you propose used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things.
If you can't get hallucinate tech before the zerg can get a pile of infestors something has gone wrong with your gameplay.
Infestors being too easy/fast to tech to is the only argument I don't understand about what incontrol said tonight. Rushing lairtech and stockpiling gas just doesn't seem like a strat that wouldn't get the zerg killed to any type of protoss aggression.
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On August 10 2011 12:01 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:59 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame.
First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira.
Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack.
OR
Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it.
Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more. This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup. The strength of Stargate is not ONLY in doing damage, but granting map control. It only grants map control if you use your air units to patrol around the map instead of trying to do damage to his mineral line. either way you are not likely to be able to prevent a big drop from happening. it has never happened in a pro-level game that i am aware of.
You don't need to do damage if he makes like 8 spores, and if you have 3 vrs and he lets you charge your vrs you can still do a ton of damage (IdrA vs MC, Dreamhack Summer)
You don't need to patrol at the point they have drop because you have observers.
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On August 10 2011 11:59 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:56 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more. This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup. The strength of Stargate is not ONLY in doing damage, but granting map control.
Same can be said about DTs.
However, all it takes is a fast 3rd and suddenly you don't gain much useful map control at all. You would already have this map control with a gateway army.
Currently, Zerg get that 3rd hatch down ASAP. So quickly a blind spore stops anything other than a gateway push from killing.
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On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped.
The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits.
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On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame.
First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira.
Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack.
OR
Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it.
Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits.
No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol.
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On August 10 2011 12:03 rdj107 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. -you make a hallucinated phoenix, see a bunch of infestors and realize you cant pressure so you turtle up and take bases. the style you propose used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Infestors being too easy/fast to tech to is the only argument I don't understand about what incontrol said tonight. Rushing lairtech and stockpiling gas just doesn't seem like a strat that wouldn't get the zerg killed to any type of protoss aggression.
Agreed. Destiny has shown that you can't take a 3rd nearly as fast as your normaly could if you use roach-ling-spore defense. Which should be abusable by taking a quick 3rd.
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On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:
[quote]
Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down?
Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol.
But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. and this is just one of the ways to punish a protoss for opening stargate. it really is not a viable opening against a competent zerg.
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On August 10 2011 12:04 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:59 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame.
First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira.
Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack.
OR
Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it.
Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. As alluded to in tonights episode. Stargate and DT need to do a lot of damage to be worth it. The second a Zerg sees stargate, he is free to drone while he fends it off. DT is more about being prepared with detection, but the same can be said. While DTs are killing a few drones Zerg is producing even more. This, along with Infestors, have cause Protoss massive headaches in the matchup. The strength of Stargate is not ONLY in doing damage, but granting map control. Same can be said about DTs. However, all it takes is a fast 3rd and suddenly you don't gain much useful map control at all. You would already have this map control with a gateway army. Currently, Zerg get that 3rd hatch down ASAP. So quickly a blind spore stops anything other than a gateway push from killing.
Rally your VR to the third and kill it, if they're playing normally it wont be up and spores wont be operational.
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On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:
[quote]
Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O
Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed.
ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or....
edit: also IdrA doesn't complain about the midgame (he says toss and zergs early games aren't robust enough, which terans are)
It's more of a: Late game Balance is in favor of toss, and he was saying TURTLING is how toss should play not, and if they go for silly sentry-zealot pushes every game they're retarded.
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EPT
